I had a chance to cup with a local pro a couple of weeks ago, and it was a great experience. We cupped two samples (cups) each of five different beans; two of the beans were so horribly processed that they served only to give a clear idea of what a crappy fermented coffee tastes like. Lemme tell you, it was rank! The other three, however, were really good. I was uniformly impressed. However, as the cups cooled, one sample began tasting a bit sour; the other sample of the same bean tasted great. The guy I was cupping with noticed the sourness way before I did (HE's the pro, after all) but I could identify it a few minutes later. He said he'd have to cup "a few" more samples to be sure that the lot wasn't messed up. I asked how many "a few" was; he told me, "Oh, probably ten." The cupping was a total gas, and I look forward to joining him again when the centrals start arriving...but I was surprised at how much time, attention, and concentration it takes to do it well. Now I understand what Tom means when he says that "cupping is a lot of work." Here's my question: how many samples do you folks (who buy several sacks or an entire lot of something) try before you feel confident enough to make the purchase? Thanks, Paul Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15thhttp://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html |
I have bought full sacks for several years now Paul and it's tough. I
really feel guilty asking for samples from 10 importers knowing at the most
I will buy 5 sacks of something- this year! Some of them are really hard
assed about sending out samples, it's like pulling teeth to get a few
ounces, and then again some will send you out a lb. There is always a lot
of pressure to trust them, "if this wasn't a great coffee we wouldn't be
selling it!". I got burned buying my first bag of coffee, from would you
believe it, Knutsen Coffee! The biggest name in the specialty coffee
industry. This does not in any way reflect on Erna or her company, just the
unscrupulous rep I had the misfortune of trusting. I did not trust my
cupping skills and knowledge at the time, so I decided to buy from the best
in the industry. Knutsen was more expensive, but I felt it was worth it,
because I would only be getting the best. I received a bag of past crop
Sumatra Golden Pawani that was quite discolored and baggy. (it was not even
what I ordered, but was told it was a much better coffee and they only had
one bag left and knew I would want it!) At the time I was certain this was
not a very good coffee, but I was torn- the top importer in the nation had
told me it was the best! Who was I to question that? Maybe my skills were
not up to par. Finally after much mental and roasting agony I sent Tom a
blind sample. He wrote me and nailed it right on, confirming my belief.
"Scott, this appears to be a past crop Sumatra" In the meantime I did the
sensible thing and ordered some of his Golden Pawani, what a difference-
night and day! At this point I should have called Erna, but it had been 6
months by this time and I felt stupid. So I took my lesson and decided not
to ever, ever, ever under any circumstances buy without a sample. I bought
a few more times from Knutsen, but it was so hard to get a sample from them,
I finally stopped. If I could talk to Erna directly I got samples and good
advise, if I talked to one of the reps I got a hard time.
I did eventually break my rule. I now buy without samples, but only because
I have found a Rep. who is tops, and I have bought from him for 2-3 years
and he has never steered me wrong. He is an excellent cupper, honest, and
just all around a wonderful guy! I waited for a year for Columbians, and
everytime I called him he would tell me straight "We've got lots of
Columbians, but nothing you want. Call me in two weeks, we've got a
promising shipment coming in" This went on for almost a year!! He did tell
me once" you know that Huila you liked so much, Tom still has some listed on
his site." I had already been buying 20lb bags from Tom, but I thought it
was super of him to mention it. Then one day it happened, I called and he
said "This is the stuff, I've already set your bags aside Scott".
Impressive!!
So Paul I don't cup much anymore, but I have the industry's 2 best
cuppers working tirelessly in my behalf. Tom of SM would be one of those
and Scott Reed of Royal Coffee the other. In the meantime I try to learn as
much as I can, from them and from everyone on this list, so I don't
embarrass myself if I ever get the chance to cup with any of you! :)
One truth I found with asking for a sample: If it's a great coffee and you
ask for a sample, chances are by the time you receive it, roast, cup and
call back it will be all gone. I'm know Tom has a system worked out for all
this, and he is a large enough buyer that he probably has folks begging to
send him samples. But even he made the move to the Bay area to be closer to
the best shipments, and be able to jump on them faster.
I remember Tom saying at one time he felt guilty asking for so many samples,
so he would just fax a list to the rep.! I'll bet Tom is at the extreme end
of the measuring stick. My guess is that the average roaster cups 1-2
Columbians before he buys.
Hope this answers some of your questions. Sorry it took so long to post a
reply.
Scott Jensen
<Snip> |
Scott, Thanks for such a long and detailed answer. I cut your post because it was so long, so if your wondering what I am talking about read Scott Jensen's post first. I buy from Tom because he does the work of cupping. There are a few other places on the web that you can buy coffee, but with Tom you always know you are getting great coffee. For home consumption who wants 100-150 pounds of one variety! I had the chance of getting one of the bags of St. Helena one year and turned it down for three reasons. (1) It was very expensive. By the way, Tom doesn't really make much money per pound. I know how much he paid for the St. Helena that year and was shocked at how low his markup was. It is so low I don't think the home consumer is very smart to think they can beat the deal they are getting. How much money are you going to save when you are throwing out baggy greens that are too old because you saved a little bit by buying a whole bag? (2) I love having 20 to 30 varieties in my stash. If I bought one bag of each I would have to build a shed and would have thousands of dollars invested in greens that I could never consume in time. (3) Tom has his ear to the ground and spoon in the cup so that we can have some of the best coffee currently available. Does Tom bring every great coffee to us. No! He is only one person. Do I get coffee from other places, sometimes, yes. Just remember - 19 years ago when I started homeroasting. I was happy to have 3 varieties in the stash and elated to have 5. Most roasters would sell you there old beans. Life is much better with Sweet Marias. Les --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ |
Thanks for the note Paul - You are very right, cupping is a lot of
"work" but hey, it's really enjoyable "work" after all. A few
thoughts on this from my perspective ...
As you experienced, I think the point that cant be under-emphasized
is that it is a constant, continuous effort. It's just a lot of work
to roast that many samples, prepare 3 cups of each sample, and make a
time in the day when you don't have other things on your mind, and
nobody has put rap on the stereo in the warehouse! (that happened
Friday ... rap and cupping just don't go well, it's like mayonnaise
on ice cream ... as I found out! I quickly changed it to my easygoing
Hawaiian music, which I find goes quite well with cupping!)
Honestly, I think your friend is more an exception than the rule. I
think a lot of roasters talk about cupping but don't do it everyday.
As you can see, it takes a lot of time, and a sense of priorities:
there's always something else you must do, and you have to chose on a
daily basisi to put cup quality above everything else. I don't know
if I mention this, but if anyone emails us saying "I got a musty note
in the Bolivian FT coffee" or "the Harar isnt that aromatic" I go
straight out to the bag, pull a sample, roast it, and set it up for
the next cupping. Also, you need to save a sample of every roast you
do, and cup that (or with espressos I pull a shot of every roast I
do, and in fact I run some of my regulars through the espresso
machine too to see how they come out...) Its really easy to slack off
and get out of this habit. Sadly, I think there are people in coffee
who are good cuppers but who really dont practice daily what they
preach. There are lots of larger roasters with slick cupping labs,
who dont really use them. (they are more like a showroom to bring in
sales staff and clients, than a real lab). I really don't think I am
especially endowed with great taste buds or a larger quantity of
papilla on my palate, but I know I work very hard at cupping. By
working hard at developing the ability to focus on the cup, you can
really go farther in cupping than someone who is genetically endowed
with more ability to taste.
Okay ... I am starting to pontificate here. So I will move on to
another topic: SM open cuppings: It's something that will happen
eventually, causal open cuppings of , well, whatever needs to be
cupped on that day. I really didn't allow for the space for it in my
current setup. The "cupping lab" is a tiny and very un-glamorous
alcove in the warehouse (although it did just get a lot nicer with a
new lab bench I picked up.) Anyway, when we move in 6-9 months (it
will be about 20 blocks from here, actually even closer to the coffee
warehouses in Oakland) I am going to set up an ample cupping room
with a central table so we can finally do this!
Tom
<Snip>
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"Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting - Tom & Maria
http://www.sweetmarias.com Thomspon Owen george |
On Apr 24, 2004, at 1:07pm, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote: <Snip> We had one of these where I used to work, small though. Nice rotating marble cupping table with spit sink and stools, sample trays, cups, scale, old Jabez Burns grinder and water kettle -- and a model ship, who knows why. Apart from the museum aspect of it, it was basically used as a room for trying out new brewing systems (like the Keurig one-cup) and as part of 'the tour' for visitors. John Blumel |
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I sent this once around 11:30, since I have not seen it post yet, I will = send it again. Sorry if it posted and this is a double! That is so true Les. When I started commercial roasting it was a real = tough decision to buy large quantity. The only point in favor of doing = so was cost. But balanced against that was the risk of buying a bad = coffee, not using it up in time and the initial outlay of cash to buy 10 = varieties. For a long time I bought 10 and 20 lb bags from Tom. I = think I had 75 different varieties (from SM) at one time!! Try doing = that with 150lb bags! :) As the coffee shop began to change and carry = only about 10 different beans, I was slowly able to purchase one or two = of my best sellers in larger quantity. And I made some mistakes. But, = and I know this borders on list heresy, I was able to use my mistakes, = this was the single benefit of flavored coffee! The coffee shop sold a = lot of flavored beans, and I bought it for them pre-roasted and = flavored. Faced with 200lbs of Costa Rica and Antigua that had faded in = 4 months I quickly decided I would start flavoring myself. It was a = good deal for both of us. The beans and flavors I used were a much = higher quality than the flavored beans I was able to buy, I was able to = cut my losses, and the shop loved the freshness and flavor. A person = who drinks flavored coffee can tell the difference believe it or not. I still buy a lot of coffee throughout the year from Tom. There is just = no beating the variety and quality. I've advised many people who want = to start their own businesses to go this route. "Buy your coffee from = Tom and you will get started on the right track." In fact I have = recommended this to 5 or 6 people who have written me about my roaster = and are interested in starting or adding to an existing business. They = want to know if roasting is hard? "Not as hard as getting good beans = IMO, buy your beans from SM's and you will already be ahead of 75% of = the roasters out there. And then start down the path of learning. Thats = the best advise I can give you." Life is much richer with Sweet Marias. Scott |
From: Lesley Albjerg <Snip> That would be me. :) I got tired of ordering 20lbs at a time from SM, so I asked them to buy me a bag (Yemen Ismaili). I've been quite happy with it and I doubt it'll last the year, but I think he may think I'm nuts... that's ok as long as I have my Ismaili. <Snip> Amen. -- Charles |
--- Charles Haynes wrote: <Snip> Sounds like you are in a great position for a Tradition offering...(hint hint) I get as many samples as possible, and try as many roasts and brewing methods as possible before I order any full sacks. If an importer won't send samples I won't buy from them. It's hard to try many roasts with the usual 1/2 lb samples, but some companies send 1lb.ers, and one of my favorites sends fat 2 lb samples. BTW, it's definately not nice to ask for samples if you're not really looking to buy... Charlie ===== Brick Oven Roasting in British Columbia Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash |
I'm ashamed to say I haven't been following the Tradition stuff but that sounds like a fun idea. I'd be willing to offer 2lbs either roasted the way I think it should be roasted, or green. Email me offlist and I'll pick a winner a week from today (that would be on May 3.) Let me know if you'd like green or lovingly roasted by me. -- Charles On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:04:17 -0700 (PDT), Oaxaca Charlie wrote: <Snip> ribes) go tohttp://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip> |