Those of you who participated in the "Cheap Coffee Grinders" thread may be pleased to know that today I have ordered a replacement. I got really fed up this morning with the stall in my vac pot. My debate, in recent days, has been between the Capresso Infinity and a Zassenhaus 169 DG, both about the same price delivered to Winnipeg, Canada. The Capresso won, mostly because it is powered. Thanks for all the advice. Dave S. |
Dave, I have a Capresso. Which version did you order? I too have a vac pot and suffer horrible stalls. I am sure it is to do with my grind. Let me now how yours goes please. Paul |
I ordered the black plastic Infinity. Had some question about static cling in plastic vs metal, but decided that would probably be dealt with by the gear-driven slow grinding. Yeah, I will be back when it arrives. Dave S. Paul wrote: <Snip> |
I don't mean to be a doom monger but I think you paid for a motor instead of good burrs. Good luck but don't hold your breathe. I will cross my fingers for you. Sometime around 11:19 AM 9/8/2004, Maryann & Dave Schellenberg typed: <Snip> -- John Nanci AlChemist at large Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/ |
John If you have some basis for thinking the burrs in the Capresso are inferior to those in the Zass, why don't you share it? Dave S. AlChemist John wrote: <Snip> |
Here we go, again... lol <Snip> |
<Snip> When I inquired about burr replacement, Dave, I was told that only the top one is replaceable - just like the el cheapo Capresso I found in a 2nd hand store for $14.00. I was thinking the Capresso Infinity was an interesting possibility - particularly in the metal body - until I found that out. That makes it another "use it 'til it shows wear & then chuck it" model, as far as I'm concerned. At resale store prices, that doesn't bother me...but at retail - and amounts in the $100-$150 area - it does. If someone is possessed of arcane knowledge to the contrary, please share...but I fail to understand what (other than cheaper manufacture) would prompt a designer to only make one burr replaceable. The only thing that comes to mind is that for some completely un-obvious (to me, at least) reason the upper (replaceable) burr sustains most of the wear, while the lower burr remains relatively unworn. If they wear equally, what is the point of installing a fresh, sharp burr over an old dull one? And...if it doesn't, in fact, make any sense, why make just one burr replaceable at all? Gene Smith baffled as usual, in Houston |
You'll probably be ok with the Infinity. I wouldn't be surprised to = find out it has the same burr set as the Solis Maestro. Speaking of the Maestro, though, did you buy the Infinity simply to be perverse? It's within $10 of the same price as the Infinity, is = available from our host, and is universally (around here and in many other places) considered to be the best motored grinder under $200. -- Rick ---- Sierra Vista, AZ, 79°F - 24%, Partly Cloudy Wind From the East Southeast at 12 mph (09:18:10) ICBM: N31° 34.015' W110° 14.717' Now Playing: Quicksilver Messenger Service - Pride Of Man - 1968 |
On Sep 9, 2004, at 12:38pm, Rick Farris wrote: <Snip> That's the price of the metal body version. The plastic is $99. John Blumel |
One of the requirements for good grind quality, in addition to hard, = sharp burrs, is that the burrs are held in perfect, non-varying alignment with each other. At the price point of the Infinity/Maestro, the material = and assembly cost to make the lower burr both stable and removable is prohibitive. So, it boils down to, as you mentioned, cheaper manufacture. -- Rick ---- Sierra Vista, AZ, 79°F - 24%, Partly Cloudy Wind From the East Southeast at 12 mph (09:48:10) ICBM: N31° 34.015' W110° 14.717' Now Playing: Phish - Jesus Just Left Chicago - 1997 |
Pardon me. I just checked and our host no longer carries the Solis = Maestro. However, it is available at a number of places (Google) for $109. That makes it only $10 more than the Infinity at $99. Personally I think Dave (or Maryann, or whoever) couldn't bear for = people to think he actually took some advice he got here. He probably *did* order = the Maestro, but doesn't want us to know it. ;) -- Rick ---- Sierra Vista, AZ, 79°F - 24%, Partly Cloudy Wind From the East Southeast at 12 mph (09:58:09) ICBM: N31° 34.015' W110° 14.717' Now Playing: Chris Rea - Texas - 1989 |
<Snip> Ah...thank you, Rick. That, at least, makes some sense. It still begs the question of why to bother making the top one replaceable, however. Do you think it's just a marketing ploy...to be able to claim replaceability, like the big boys, when it's only partially true? A way to distinguish the product from cheaper grinders to justify a price on the way to premium? Gene Smith riding the wild learning curve, in Houston |
On Sep 9, 2004, at 1:04pm, Rick Farris wrote: <Snip> Well, pardon me. I was actually thinking of the Maestro Plus. John Blumel |
<Snip> Let's all go over to Dave's house and make him make us a cuppa coffee and find out! Gene Smith riding the wild learning curve, in Houston |
Just what every one has already just said. Only the top is replaceable, they dull quicker (once the housing starts to wear) and I have tasted coffee from one. I don't know how old it was (sub a year I think), but the static was terrible and there was lots of dust. And the one I saw ran way fast. Heated the grounds up a lot. Sometime around 08:20 AM 9/9/2004, Maryann & Dave Schellenberg typed: <Snip> -- John Nanci AlChemist at large Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/ |
Just what every one has already just said. Only the top is replaceable, they dull quicker (once the housing starts to wear) and I have tasted coffee from one. I don't know how old it was (sub a year I think), but the static was terrible and there was lots of dust. And the one I saw ran way fast. Heated the grounds up a lot. Sometime around 08:20 AM 9/9/2004, Maryann & Dave Schellenberg typed: <Snip> -- John Nanci AlChemist at large Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/ |
They didn't *make* it replaceable, it just ended up that way as a result = of optimization of their manufacturing process. Believe me, if it was = cheaper to make the same grinder with the same performance without a replaceable = top burr, they would. Being as it is the way it is, though, you don't expect the marketing = boys to overlook the "feature," do you? -- Rick ---- Sierra Vista, AZ, 82°F - 21%, Partly Cloudy Wind From the East Southeast at 13 gusting to 17 mph (10:28:18) ICBM: N31° 34.015' W110° 14.717' Now Playing: Billy Idol - White Wedding-Parts I & II - 1987 |
Of course I just did it to be perverse! My only joy in life is irritating Angelo! The consumer reviews at CoffeeGeek have several very negative ratings for the Solis Maestro and the Plus. The (three) consumer reviews for Capresso Infinity are all positive. People complain about static electricity from the Solis. I've had enough of that from my Braun. People complain about the Solis being hard to clean. The Solis Maestro was considered to be the best motored grinder under $200 when it first came to market. The Capresso Infinity has arrived since. Mark Prince only rates the burr quality & type of the Solis at 5.5 out of 10. The Solis Maestro Plus costs 50% more than the Capresso Infinity. Is that rational enough? Dave S. Rick Farris wrote: <Snip> |
Sounds like a great idea! Of course, it hasn't arrived yet, so you'll have to wait a while. When would you all like to visit Winnipeg? February? You'll really appreciate a cup of good coffee then. Dave S. Gene Smith wrote: <Snip> |
On Sep 9, 2004, at 11:27 AM, Gene Smith wrote:
<Snip>
Gene,
They make it so that one is not replaceable so you have to buy
another whole grinder. The goal is to turn you into a revenue stream.
Jim Gundlach |
On Sep 9, 2004, at 9:04 AM, AlChemist John wrote:
<Snip>
John, that is what they call you when you tell the kids not to drink
the rubbing alcohol.
Jim Gundlach |
<Snip> Winnipeg? In February? That oughta thin the guest list, Dave... Gene Smith riding the wild learning curve, in Houston |
I own the best grinder under $200.00! |
That would be the mortar & pestle you were touting a few months ago? Dave S. Tom Ulmer wrote: <Snip> |
I forgot to ask - would that be the Solis mortar & pestle or the one from Capresso? Dave S. Tom Ulmer wrote: <Snip> |
lol... no. that would be the best manually operated one under $20 that on first glance seems a bit more civilized than 2 stones and an old t-shirt. the mortar and pestle did however produce some very reasonable grinds to use with sterno-heated water & the french press during the recent storm-induced 4 day power outage. hey - when you work that hard for a cup of coffee it's got to be good - right? |
On Sep 9, 2004, at 4:45pm, Tom Ulmer wrote: <Snip> Well, you better keep it handy. The 5pm Ivan forecast looks better than the 11am -- especially the intensity forecast -- but not that much better. John Blumel |
No. It would be the ProLine mortar & pestle piece produced & marketed by a division of a large multi-national corporation headquarted in MI. Disclaimer- There are no expresso machines on any of the premises which I may reside. There is however good (on occasion excellent) strong coffee served at least once daily. |
Aww, c'mon, Dave. I'm not annoyed. Didn't you see the "lol"? You just remind me of a dear friend of mine.... Ciao, Angelo <Snip> |
Too late to check back, I've already deleted it. If I took you wrong, Angelo, I apologize. You can hardly blame me, though, for picking up a bit of attitude from some of the responses on this list. One of them seems to be, "If you don't have the money to buy the top, then why are you wasting our time?" That one showed up on the original thread, where it was suggested that Rocky Rancilio is the only grinder worth buying. Then, after doing my research, and telling this board my decision about a grinder, I get "Good luck but don't hold your breathe." without any stated reason and "did you buy the Infinity simply to be perverse?" That suggests to me that some people consider independant research and decision making to be anti-social. So, where I have mistaken good-natured ribbing for criticism, I'm sorry, I didn't read it that way. I do appreciate those people who have added to the value of this list with real information and reasoned advice. Dave S. Angelo wrote: <Snip> |
Actually, the Rancilio Rocky is the *bottom* of the range of grinders = that are worth buying. Anything less than that will end up costing more in = the long run. Of course if you're just dipping your toes into this hobby, why not = avoid a huge outlay in the beginning by buying things you'll probably be unhappy with in a year? Then as time passes, if you still enjoy the hobby you = can spend big bucks in incremental stages. -- Rick ---- Sierra Vista, AZ, 88°F - 17%, Partly Cloudy Wind Variable at 6 mph (17:58:09) ICBM: N31° 34.015' W110° 14.717' Now Playing: Led Zeppelin - Your Time Is Gonna Come - 1969 |
I presume you are thinking about grinders for espresso. A number of people who correspond on this list don't "do" espresso. I've never sought or expressed any opinion on grinders for espresso - my application is vac pot, press pot, pour over. Dave S. Rick Farris wrote: <Snip> |
On Sep 9, 2004, at 9:14pm, Rick Farris wrote: <Snip> Cash flow can sometimes be as or more important than total cost. John Blumel |
I did a trade for a Mazzer Major. Jeff only paid $37.00 for it at the Salvation Army! Deals are out there if you look! Jeff and I did a win-win trade! I love my doserless Major! My grandchildren (don't have any yet!) will inhert it because it just isn't going to wear out! Les Maryann & Dave Schellenberg wrote: Of course I just did it to be perverse! My only joy in life is irritating Angelo! The consumer reviews at CoffeeGeek have several very negative ratings for the Solis Maestro and the Plus. The (three) consumer reviews for Capresso Infinity are all positive. People complain about static electricity from the Solis. I've had enough of that from my Braun. People complain about the Solis being hard to clean. The Solis Maestro was considered to be the best motored grinder under $200 when it first came to market. The Capresso Infinity has arrived since. Mark Prince only rates the burr quality & type of the Solis at 5.5 out of 10. The Solis Maestro Plus costs 50% more than the Capresso Infinity. Is that rational enough? Dave S. Rick Farris wrote: <Snip> |
Dave, I lived in Grand Forks, N.D. for two years, that isn't funny! Les Maryann & Dave Schellenberg wrote: Sounds like a great idea! Of course, it hasn't arrived yet, so you'll have to wait a while. When would you all like to visit Winnipeg? February? You'll really appreciate a cup of good coffee then. Dave S. Gene Smith wrote: <Snip> |
You know what's even funnier? We go to Grand Forks to see the sights! (And so my wife can shop someplace foreign) Dave S. Lesley Albjerg wrote: <Snip> |
So if Les got a Mazzer Major for $37, how much should I offer you for this bottom-of-the-line Rocky? ;-) Dave S. Dennis Parham wrote: <Snip> |
Dennis, I'd be more than happy to take it off your hand(s) for you ! Send it to me if the NY Giants take the Eagles on Sunday !!! ( 1/2 price..or is that too much to ask, allowing depreciation...battle scars, etc. Dennis wrote, |
--Apple-Mail-23-595238003 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset O-8859-1; format=flowed lol....its 4 months old..lol no battle scars yet..but it can have a gold eagle on top!!! ive been thinking of mounting one!! hehe its a GREAT GREAT grinder!! hehe Dennis Parham On Sep 10, 2004, at 8:25 PM, Gary Townsend wrote: <Snip> <Snip> case! <Snip> --Apple-Mail-23-595238003 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset O-8859-1 lol....its 4 months old..lol no battle scars yet..but it can have a gold eagle on top!!! ive been thinking of mounting one!! hehe its a GREAT GREAT grinder!! hehe Dennis Parham On Sep 10, 2004, at 8:25 PM, Gary Townsend wrote: Dennis, I'd be more than happy to take it off your hand(s) for you ! Send it to me if the NY Giants take the Eagles on Sunday !!! ( 1/2 price..or is that too much to ask, allowing depreciation...battle scars, etc. Dennis wrote,<Comic Sans MSThe easiest way to find something lost around the house is to buy a Comic Sans = MSreplacement. Gary Do you Yahoo!? 0000,0000,EEEEShop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.= --Apple-Mail-23-595238003-- |
For about the last week, I have been less and less enthusiastic about my coffee. I quit using my vac pot, because of stalls, and was getting really turned off by the amount and flavour of sludge in my French Press. Today my Capresso Infinity arrived from Cooking.com, double boxed, with foam peanuts surrounding the inner box. I chose cooking.com because they have arrangements with a broker to get it into Canada. 13 days from ordering to arrival is very good! I wasted no time in assembling the grinder. I put four level scoops of Ethiopian Yirgacheffe beans, roasted seven days ago to second crack outliers into the bean container. I set the grind finess to the middle of the course range, to use in my vac pot. (New Cory rod in a Bodum Santos Stovetop) You start this grinder by moving the timer knob from 0 to your estimated time, up to 10 seconds. I moved it about three times, totalling about 7 seconds to finish the grind. The sound, instead of the scream of a turbo-prop engine, as in my Salton burr grinder, is a machinery sound of gears, certainly not silent, but far quieter than the Salton. When finished, and I poured the ground coffee into the top of my vac pot, there was a small amount of coffee clinging to the sides of the plastic container, again less than from my Salton. I pre-heated the 20 fl oz water to slow steam, poured it into the bottom of the vac pot, heated that until first bubbles were visible, then put the top on. It took 20 seconds for all the water to reach the top. I let it bubble for another 60 seconds, then removed it from the heat. 20 seconds later, the coffee started moving south. Total time from removal from heat, to all the coffee having moved south was 6 minutes. The taste of the coffee? I don't have the descriptive powers of many of you, but let me say it was pure, rather than muddy, and very enjoyable. There was a barely visible trace of silt in the bottom of the cup, none visible when I was finished drinking. Next batch, I will grind one notch courser (the coursest setting available), attempting to reduce the time for coffee to move south. I also plan to try the plastic filter that came with the Santos again. Dave S. Paul wrote: <Snip> |
At 1:15 PM -0500 9/21/04, Maryann & Dave Schellenberg wrote: <Snip> Hi Dave, Keep us posted. It took me a few iterations of testing before I found the grind that would result in a two to three minute southward trip and that seems to result in the optimal taste (and with a cory rod no silt in the coffee). Best, Edward |
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:15:13 -0500, you wrote: (snip comments about a competitor of SM) <Snip> <Snip> grind. <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> A few years ago I was using a Solis Maestro grinder and had a problem with stalls. I called Baratza (sp?) and was told that a course grind produced more fines (dust), and I should try a finer grind...It worked! I have a set of screens which tend to confirm this. My results are at:http://www.geocities.com/bhfrazee/This is raw data, not normalized (whatever that means). I now use a Rocky and even with a setting of 8, which Tom was using for espresso at the PNWGII, my trip south (from first brown in the bottom to sucking air) was about a minute and a half. I now use a setting of 20 which gives me a trip south in about a minute. I use the original Bodom filter. good luck! Bart <Snip> and <Snip> unsvbscribes) go to =http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings |
That's very interesting data, Bart. I will try some finer grinds on my next batch. Can anyone explain why setting the grinder finer would produce less dust? This grinder business is way more complicated that it would seem at first glance. Dave S. Bart Frazee wrote: <Snip> |
<Snip> My half-baked (not even near first crack) theory is that not-very-good (or dull?) burrs make relatively a lot of dust as part of the grinding process. As the grind itself becomes finer and finer, the smaller-than-intended particles get closer and closer to the desired size and seem (relatively) to disappear. Hence, 'dust' will be much more noticeable, and proportionately more troublesome at coarser grinds. Gene Smith entirely willing to be corrected on this, in Houston |
Sorry, Gene, but thanks for playing! :-) Below is an extract from Bart's screening of grounds from his Solis Maestro It definitely shows a quantitative reduction in the grounds produced at each finess level, that would pass through his finest screen. So its not just a relative percentage difference, but an actual reduction in coffee dust. Screen Size Course Medium Fine 0.009 4.41% 0.84% 0.35% Dave S. Gene Smith wrote: <Snip> |
Oops, that didn't come out like it went in! Try this: Screen Size Course Medium Fine 0.009 4.41% 0.84% 0.35% Dave S. <Snip> |
<Snip> Oh yeah? Well here's *another* half-baked theory. Do we know the burrs were clean before these tests were started? Seems at least possible that if there were any dust present, the larger size grind might knock them loose - effectively 'cleaning' the grinder. Sheesh...ya didn't think you'd get rid of me that easily, did you? Gene Smith making it up as he goes along, in Houston |
<Snip> I kinda figured that was what it was supposed to look like, Dave. Assuming that my facetious suggestion that the larger grind was 'cleaning' the grinder is total malarkey, clearly there has to be something about a wider setting of the burrs - more clearance between them - that engenders dust production. Or, put another way, crushing the beans more thoroughly and quickly seems to avoid something that happens at wider settings. I have a feeling that unless someone can offer insight from some analogous process investigation, the answer to this one will require high speed photography and other expensive equipment to solve. Gene Smith riding the wild learning curve, in Houston |
<Snip> clearance between them - >that engenders dust production. Or, put another way, crushing the beans more thoroughly and quickly >seems to avoid something that happens at wider settings. I was told (FWIW!) that it's the difference between crushing and shaving the beans...crushing produces more dust, and at larger grind settings more beans are hitting each other and dusting rather than grinding/shaving between two burrs. Was also told that conical burrs will always have more crushing (hence a less even grind distribution) vs. flat burrs, as the beans are forced together as they get closer to the burrs. But don't let that stop you from bringing out that fancy 'spensive equipment! Craig in Marin... |
Well, Kenneth Davids, in his Espresso book claims that for best results your "grinder" should not "crush" the beans, but should "shave" them. So maybe the problem is that at the coarse setting, more "crushing" is going on, and at the finer setting more "shaving" is happening, because the bean is whittled down more gradually. =S Gene Smith wrote: <Snip> |
Great grinders don't crush the beans -- they shave off little chips. -- Rick ---- Weather(0): No connection to weather service ICBM: N31° 34.015' W110° 14.717' Now Playing: Steppenwolf - Hoochie Coochie Man - 1968 |