<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> I would like to add an echo to Andrew's comments. On a recent weekend getaway with my better half to Leavenworth, Washington, we stopped by the local "coffee roaster" for what we thought would be a great mocha. There was Starbucks across the street, but we were yearning for something different. (Most Starbucks here in Washington are pretty good, not great, but predictable...) My wife ordered a breve and I ordered a mocha, then walked past their small roaster to use the restroom. I returned in time to see them make my mocha. The girl behind the counter "pulled" the shots ( the machine was on 'auto' ), then, YUK, she pulled out the jug of chocolate milk and proceeded to steam it, poured it and handed me my mocha. I paid for it, but regreted doing do later. YUK, YUK, YUK!!! I ended up throwing almost all of it out. We would have been better off going to across the street... TR |
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> I think I know the place in Leavenworth you're talking about, TR. I used to search every place I traveled to for a good ristretto. One day, I was in a shop in downtown Seattle (on 1st Ave.), where they roasted their own beans. I asked the gal behind the counter if she would pull me her best ristretto. She replied with an enthusiasm that raised my expectations. She pulled, I sipped. It was awful. Bitter, bodiless bile. Noticing the pained expression on my face, the young lady asked, "You didn't like it"? Not wanting to embarrass her further I replied, "I think maybe I just don't like espresso. No matter where I go, I can't seem to get anything that tastes good to me." She leaned over the counter and confided, "I know, I don't like the stuff, either. Let me pour you a regular coffee." Now this young lady was not atypical of the American barrista. Most of them simply don't know what a great shot is, and they, like us, don't like the product they produce and don't drink it without milk, sweeteners, and flavorings that tend to make the drink less horrific. Is it any wonder that it is so hard to get a good shot at a coffee shop or drive thru? --Hugh |
There are actually two roasters in Leavenworth, but sadly, both give about the same results. One of the roasters "blends" coffee with bits of dried local fruit, like apples or apricots. I haven't been brave enough to try one of those yet. Anthony To get your own FREE ZDNet Onebox - FREE voicemail, email, and fax, all in one place - sign up today athttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://www.zdnetonebox.comhomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> Hugh, Isn't that why we are here, at this coffee forum, because we all have our own tastes? It would be a different world if everywhere we went we found more people just like ourselves, kinda boring actually. But even within this forum, no two people have the same tastes. For example, I would probably have the same face you did if I drank the roast of those who never get to second crack. Point is, if we happen to find a place that serves a cup that meets our tastes, it would be a miracle! And if everyone did we would never have discovered our own little world of doing it ourselves. steve |
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> Steve, I find your assertion that bad espresso in a commercial establishment is "OK" because "we all have our own tastes" to be patently offensive. I told the story of the barrista who didn't like espresso and who pulled bad shots to make the point that it is extremely improbable that a barrista who has no appreciation for or an understanding of ristretto could ever pull a good shot. That is the primary problem in most US coffee houses. I also maintain that it is no "miracle" to find a place that pours a wonderful cuppa. There are thousands of them in Italy and more than a few in the US. All it takes is proper equipment, carefully cleaned and maintained, good coffee, operated by someone who really loves coffee and cares about their job enough to master the skills necessary to make good espresso. And yes, I enjoy roasting my own coffee and I enjoy making my own espresso. It is a wonderful hobby that I can do every day. But, we should expect something nearly as good, if not better, in a quality coffee bar. --Hugh |
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> Hugh, Not to get into an email war, but you've insulted millions of coffee drinkers who think its good stuff. The Leavenworth and Seattle that you speak of are not in Italy. It may not be a miracle to find a good cup but gauging from your original post with all your 'travel' and 'search' it would be damn close. Most posts in this regard are all negative so far. Lets face it, most of us would not want to live off the profits from a shop that specialized in that perfect cup, that's the problem with America. I've ran a few numbers through my head while waiting for my roast, you would have to charge an awful lot to keep a good shop running and still make a decent living. Now if we could bottle it and store it like a great bottle of wine... Anyway, isn't it great that we at can at least expect a great cup from ourselves and we don't have to drink that other stuff. steve |
I'm entering into this thread treading carefully as you are talking about my direct competition pertaining to the Leavenworth Roaster. If you can remember their name, (initials C.C.) their name fits their dark brew perfectly, it makes you Chatter as it hits your palate. The next time you are in the area drive the twenty minutes to Wenatchee and I'll attempt to pull you an Organic Peru that will knock your socks off. Actually you make a point I was trying to convey a month ago on how difficult it is to break into the coffee trade in the Northwest when the charbroiled bean is so widely accepted as the norm. We in this group are not "normal" and have a difficult time putting up with what we call substandard Coffee Houses serving underextracted charbroiled bitter crap. But from a business point I'd go broke the first day if I had to rely on straight espresso drinkers, in two months period of time I might sell one straight espresso. Ninety-nine point ninety-nine percent of all drinks are flavored lattes, including, get this, Toasted Marshmallow. I carry over sixty-four different variety of flavors in an attempt to keep up with customer demands. Descent espresso can sell but it has to be in a populous area for the proprietor to survive. This e-mail list has provided me with invaluable and challenging information while striving to perfect my beverage of choice and attempting to meet the demands my patrons beverage of choice, two separate drinks, one is tasty, the other sells................Jerry homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Jerry, What all do you do/sell in your shop? Do specialize in one area? I have been curious how one would make it work to sell fresh roasted coffee beans. I have so many questions like what do you store them in, how long do you store them, what do you do with them when they reach certain age? And of course, how do you make a profit vs. loss? Whats the name of your shop? Thanks, steve |
On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, "Steve" wrote: <Snip> I don't consider pointing out those people's ignorance an "insult" to them. We were all that ignorant in the past, unless we grew up in a family that knew good coffee. <Snip> No, it's not a miracle, any one of the commercial readers of this list or alt.coffee produce wonderful shots and coffee. It's not geography that prevents one from doing so, it's culture. <Snip> And rightfully so. A friend of mine commented, after I refused a cup of coffee after dinner in a restaurant, "what do you expect, it's only restaurant coffee!". That very attitude is what allows such establishment to continue to serve stale, poorly made coffee and espresso. She would never think to say "what do you expect, it's only restaurant steak!", but the acceptance of bad coffee has become natural. Our great-grandmothers knew good coffee, because they were likely roasting it themselves, but with the advent of Folger's, generations have lost the knowledge of what a good cup of coffee even tastes like. <Snip> I don't understand your assertion that creating a good cup of coffee or shot of espresso, in a shop housing a local roaster, is less profitable than producing dreck. They have all the necessary ingredients and lack only the appropriate knowledge. In the example given by Hugh, the beans were fresh, the equipment was appropriate, but the barista has never been educated properly. Astounding, given the presumption that a person opens a local roastery because of their dissatisfaction with commercially-produced coffee beans. <Snip> Sure, but it's not rocket science. I shouldn't have to wait until I get home from dinner to enjoy a good cup of coffee. homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Bearhair, You are absolutely right, it's not rocket science, it's an art. Most businesses aren't in the business of art, they are there to make a profit. Hats off to the few who do sell a great brew. And, as Jerry said, 99.9% of their customers don't care or, more realistically, don't have the time to care because they are rushing to make their own profits somewhere. It would be great to hear from those who do sell a fresh roast cup, how they are doing and what they do to make a decent living. Most of us here have have been willing to take the time to create a great cup of coffee. I will go out on a limb here and say that if the 99.9% percent all decided to switch most of you would not be here. It's got to do with the pride of being in the smaller percentage, the better cup if you will. On top of that, over time, we will all wonder how we ever drank this stuff because our taste buds are going to change and accept something totally different. steve |
On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 13:15:34 -0500, Bearhair wrote: <Snip> <Snip> Exactly, and it's precisely because "... the acceptance of bad coffee has become natural" that restaurants interested in serving the widest number of patrons would be crazy to expend significant money and effort on serving home-roasted-and-brewed quality coffee. Not only would the effort be completely wasted on 99.9% of the customers who wouldn't know a really good cup of coffee if it bit them, but even worse, the restaurant would probably be criticized by patrons unpleasantly surprised by coffee that tasted so radically different than what they were used to drinking. Personally, I don't expect most restaurants to serve the quality of coffee I'm used to having at home, so I'm never too disappointed. I generally skip ordering any coffee when I'm out for dinner and then make myself a cup when I get home. Ralph Cohen rpcohen homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, "Steve" wrote: <Snip> Excuse me, but drawing the Virgin Mary using steamed milk on the top of a latte is art. Pulling a quality shot of espresso or brewing a good cup of coffee from fresh beans is technique. <Snip> I beg to differ. Most of us here have taken the time to LEARN how to create a great cup of coffee. The making is the easy part and doesn't take much time at all. <Snip> I agree, in part. If the vast majority of the public demanded quality coffee, we would not be here, not because it was an issue of pride in being an "elite" minority, but because the knowledge we seek would be readily available. We would not have to search through the internet to find those that do and sit at their knee to learn the oral tradition of good coffee, it would be common knowledge. <Snip> On this I must wholeheartedly disagree, presuming you're speaking in terms of a few generations. Freshly made coffee, brewed properly from freshly roasted quality beans, is the pinnacle of obtainable flavor from such a product. Same also for freshly baked home-made bread. And fruit at the perfect point of ripeness, grown from heirloom seeds without the "benefit" of genetic engineering to improve shippability at the cost of flavor, These flavors are the best of the breed, and I don't believe that human's tastes will change that drastically so as to no longer appreciate such quality. Society's willingness to give up the quality of freshly home roasted, properly brewed coffee was driven by the psychological desire generated by marketing schemes, where the home-roaster was depicted as back-woods and the purchaser of commercially-prepared coffee was a woman of the future. homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Well, I hope the person requesting less text gets by your post. At any rate, since you have access to the internet, you should search on health related info such as taste buds and other senses. Yes, they do change not only with age but by what we intake. Our senses can become accustomed to tastes, smells, sounds, etc where we no longer recognize them as when that item first hit our pallete. Some foods, once incredible, can become rather boring. There was even a post recently about zinc having some affect. Most people do change, and grow... In regards to making coffee is easy and profitable, I haven't seen any posters come forward with their results, so I would rather not judge except from an investment point of view it's not something I would venture into right now - how about you? steve homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
"Steve" wrote: <Snip> I never wrote that it was "easy and profitable", I questioned your assertion that an existing coffeehouse would lose money by providing a better quality product. See Message-ID: homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Bearhair, I hope people aren't getting annoyed with our emails, hopefully it's not too much of a burden to ignore us... I would really like to hear from a shop owner who a) keeps on hand the quality of beans Tom sells b) roasts at least 24-48 hours in advance of brewing c) brews 10 minutes max before the customer wants the drink d) is able to store and use the roasted beans before their time. I see a lot of 'aged' roasted beans, wasted brew, and a good deal of the time, out of fresh roast. It makes for an interesting business plan to pull it off. Believe me, I really enjoy roasting and appreciate the taste. I have spent many moments trying to figure a way to share it with the rest of the world. The original coffee shop, before Starbucks, started out that way. Where are they now? An investment opportunitty making the stuff most here complain about. steve homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
I agree, in part. If the vast majority of the public demanded quality coffee, we would not be here, not because it was an issue of pride in being an "elite" minority, but because the knowledge we seek would be readily available. We would not have to search through the internet to find those that do and sit at their knee to learn the oral tradition of good coffee, it would be common knowledge. In light of this, there was a thread on alt.coffee as to why there were hardly any Italian participants on (in?) that newsgroup. The conclusion seemed to be that the Italians don't need to discuss what makes good coffee, they just drink it. Being of Italian descent, I am almost ashamed of the dreck my family drinks at gatherings. Mr. Coffee machines and Folgers abound. I generally bring my Moka pot and grinder with me, and am duly laughed at by all but the oldest aunts who remember the taste and method......and please don't even mention espresso...lol I remember as a kid (1940's) that the "strong" coffee (Medaglia D'oro, made in a Moka pot) was only served at special occasions and was usually served with a shot of Anisette in it...I guess it was too "strong" for everyday use... They became Americanized very quickly, and lost something in the process...:-( Ciao, Angelo homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
I never wrote that it was "easy and profitable", I questioned your assertion that an existing coffeehouse would lose money by providing a better quality product. See Message-ID: I have to agree..since they already have the ingredients and equiptment, the only thing left is to learn how to use them...How would that "hurt" profits? Ciao, Angelo homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroasthomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
"Steve" wrote: <Snip> You obviously don't follow alt.coffee. There are several roasters that participate. The original example was a local roaster whose barista pulled a poor shot and admitted she didn't even like it herself, indicating no knowledge of the possibility of good espresso. Sticking with that example, we have all of your criteria covered. What does any of that have to do with pulling a good shot? Or are you changing the topic to profitability of coffeeshops in general? homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Bearhair, I thought you left for the day... <Snip> We have gotten off the original topic. This all started with finding a shop that makes a great cup and all of the negative comments about most coffee houses. But my point still stands, they are few and far between because most in America prefer to make a decent living, by selling to the masses. When one is not at home it is extremely difficult to find that 'perfect' cup. I don't disagree that there are some great shops out there. In fact, I tend to visit Jerry in Wenatchee some day. But expecting to find a great cup everywhere one goes is pretty slim - a "miracle"... steve homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
"Ralph Cohen" wrote: <Snip> I don't understand your assertion that, given a GOOD cup of coffee, most patrons wouldn't appreciate it. Most of us did, and that's what got us started with this pursuit. Everyone I have ever made GOOD coffee for has noticed the difference and loved it. Wasted on them? Hardly. The question is whether it would be cost-effective, ie. would their appreciation of the coffee translate into the willingness to pay more to cover the cost? homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Angelo wrote <Snip> I generally agree. I spent 3 years in Europe some of that time in Italy. It seemed that most every corner had a bakery or drugstore that had a roasterie in it. Each with its own Blend. All the coffee was fresh and all the coffee was different. There was no _bad_ coffee. Even the espresso that came out of vending machine at the office was better than what most cafes serve in this country. <Snip> ... <Snip> This is what I see as the real issue. Think about the typical office in the US. We grab a cup of coffee on the way to a meeting sip on it, and if we run out pour another out of the thermos on the table. Coffee has become what a cigarette used to be, something to do. In Europe, Italy in particular, one would go to a meeting with bottled water and when it was time for coffee the meeting would break espresso was served and everyone focused on there coffee. There was no discussion until after the coffee had been drunk. At meals it was the same way, coffee was always served as a seperate course. Never with dinner or dessert. It was always treated with respect and was never just part of the cuisine. We Americans (in general) do not stop to smell the roses. Coffee has become part of the background. To address the supplier part of this thread (Why can't we get good coffee?) I put forth the following. Americans are driven by mass marketing and profit not by Pride and Quality of Service. We don't have corner roasteries because the businesses aspire to more profit which means centralized mass marketing. etc... We have a perfect example of a european style business right in front of us. Tom our 'Reluctant Retailer' manages his business to less growth than what the market will bear.... Why? Because he doesn't believe that he can sustain the high quality through unbridled growth. I have done the same with my company. So this attitude is prevalent but not universal. I agree Angelo we have lost something. ciao jeff homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
From Bearhair, I don't understand your assertion that, given a GOOD cup of coffee, most patrons wouldn't appreciate it. Most of us did, and that's what got us started with this pursuit. Everyone I have ever made GOOD coffee for has noticed the difference and loved it. Wasted on them? Hardly. The question is whether it would be cost-effective, ie. would their appreciation of the coffee translate into the willingness to pay more to cover the cost? You are right on the mark, Bearhair - well said, my friend! The rank inexperience of some of the newbies around here leads to the condescendingly elitist attitudes they espouse. In the Seattle area, I personally know of three independent roasters whose entire business is roasting and delivering fresh coffee to restaurants. That means a hell of a lot of restaurants in this town are interested in and do provide a pretty good cup of coffee. Now, whether the coffee they're offering is up to the standards of our newfound experts, is a matter for another discussion, but it beats the hell out of Folger's or Boyd's, and it's a growing trend. This is happening in the face of incredible competition, which includes the offer of larger roasters like Starbucks and Seattle's Best, for example, to supply free coffee and espresso making equipment to establishments that sign contracts to buy their roasted coffee. So, at least in this area, there are plenty of restaurants that brew and serve a good cup of coffee. I suggest that the folks who complaing about the quality of coffee at restaurants stop dining at Denny's. And Bearhair is right, ordinary folks can taste the difference. Whether they're willing to go out of their way to find it is another question. --Hugh homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Hugh, You must be a newbie to Seattle. I've dined at the finest restaurants here and although I have occasionally enjoyed a decent cup none of them come close to what I can get with a "fresh roast". One great thing about people from the Northwest is we don't take ourselves too seriously. Most places create a cup of coffee that's worth drinking and we don't raise our noses at them if ours happens to be better. But as usual, this post has strayed. A traveler is going to have a tough time finding that perfect cup that's meets his arrogant tastes. steve homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Well, Steve, I've been around Seattle for quite awhile (sigh). Hardly a newbie. I've also been roasting coffee for awhile - long enough not to take myself (or anyone) too seriously, where coffee is concerned. Making good coffee is just cooking. Call over to Black Swan in Redmond and get a list of their customers. You may find that the best coffee isn't necessarily being served in the "fine" restaurants you patronize. Next time you're out "fine" dining, check with the chef to see what brand of coffee they are using. You may be surprised.... That same restaurant may be paying that chef 60 or $100k per year to create the puffdoodles you munch on, but leaves the maintenance of equipment and the brewing of coffee to the bus boy. --Hugh |
"Steve" wrote: <Snip> An insistence on a quality product, made with fresh ingredients and prepared in a manner known to maximize its flavors, is not arrogance. I would no more accept a cup of bad coffee as I would accept a serving of stale bread. There's just no excuse for that to occur, other than "no one else complains". If that were the supreme driving force in all things, the world would be a very sorry place indeed. homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
On Sun, 29 Apr 2001 08:26:24 -0700, Hugh Solaas wrote: <Snip> Your statement above is certainly one of the most condescending, elitist and immature I've seen expressed on this list to date. Are you an inexperienced newbie here? <Snip> Bearhair was the one complaining, if I recall correctly. <Snip> My point exactly. People _can_ taste the difference but unfortunately, many of them either don't particularly like what they taste or they don't think that the difference is worth the price. When Taster's Choice first started marketing freeze dried coffee in the early '60's, they promoted it on the basis that it tasted much more like fresh brewed coffee than the other instant coffees. Many food critics agreed with that claim, but after an initial surge, sales dropped off sharply. When the company conducted marketing research to determine the reason why, they discovered that most people had gotten used to the relatively flat taste of the regular instant coffees and consequently found that Taster's Choice was too strongly flavored for their tastes. A "New & Improved" version was then created, which maintained the freeze-dried crystals like the original but tasted more like regular instant coffee, and that combination proved to be a success. So, while I too wish that every restaurant served coffee comparable to my home roasted brew, I nevertheless recognize that selling to the least-common-denominator is often the most profitable course for a business to take. It doesn't particularly bother me, however, since I generally just wait until I get home to fix myself a pot. Besides, there's only a limited amount of really good beans to go around and if everyone wanted them, we'd be paying $50 a pound for good Costa Rican instead of $5. Ralph Cohen rpcohen homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |