Pesky newbie roaster with another question here— on the SM site Tom
says that Full City is on the verge of 2nd crack and FC+ is at the
first audible snaps of 2nd. I'm currently using a popper, without
thermometer, to roast. This means that as of yet I have no way to
measure temps and am relying on sound/sight/smell alone to judge
degree of roast. Would the first outlier or so of 2nd crack count as
being on the verge of second?
-- 
The Crystal Wind is the storm, and the storm is data, and the data is life.
                                                  Daniel Keyes Moran â€=
”
The Long Run

Michael Douglas-Llyr wrote:
<Snip>
Not really. But remember the smell and sight and  end just before.http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.html

With my Hot Top, here is where the timer comes into play.
If you normally roast the same bean load, You can quickly establish  a time 
when second crack happens. Approaching this point, look at he beans to check 
color. Now in order to esablsh this point you need a constant voltage and 
that is why Santa brought me a brand new Variac this Christmas from SM.
 Oh, by the way, mine is red like the season.

I wondered the same thing as I started several months ago. One thing
that really helped me was to finally roast some of SMs French Roast
blend way into second crack. I had no idea how aggressive second crack
could be. This showed me how second crack developed. I think there's a
relatively bell shaped curve for number of individual snaps per unit
of time. That makes those first snaps outliers as the beans reach the
edge if second. There will always be some that crack before others. So
the decision point where the break between FC and FC+ is brings the
craft and practice into the process.
If I stop the roast with the first outliers I've been calling that FC.
If it goes into second a little (10-15, 20 seconds) but second isn't
"rolling" I've been calling that FC+. Rolling second gets into Vienna.
Keep experimenting. 
Demian
On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 14:44:12 -0600, Michael Douglas-Llyr
 wrote:
<Snip>
om
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e.
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€”
<Snip>
ribes) go tohttp://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>

This is what I do on my manuel popper.  I roast through the 1st crack and 
then reduce the heat some to stablizie it for a time, maybe 2 minutes -- I try to 
hold the temp constant or let it increase slowly  -- and then after I have 
enough seperation, I increase the heat some,  when the temp goes up several 
degrees, I can begin to smell a bit more smoke -- I dump prior the 2nd crack. 
Presto: Full City -- not one pop of the 2nd.  

Generally, Full City will happen just before the first outliers pop, but if you stop at the very first outlier you won't be very far off. If one has a super sensitive palate there might be a noticeable difference between the taste of such a roast and a 'true' Full City. But, I would bet that even most people on this list would find the difference subtle. (Some might find it gigantic).
If you really want to stop at Full City, a $20 digital thermometer or multimeter with thermoprobe can be very helpful. I used one for a while to better calibrate my nose with the bean temp (and in the process discovered that I generally prefer my coffee roasted to the first outliers rather than stopping a little earlier -- although I do like the occasional Kenya roasted to somewhere just short of Full City and I use the thermometer then because I find the changes between City and Full City a bit harder to nail (maybe because I don't stop there very often).
Anyway, that it just my .02,
Edward
At 2:44 PM -0600 1/06/05, Michael Douglas-Llyr wrote:
<Snip>

Hi,
When Tom published the second version of the pictorial guide, I asked to
have more times given after fc+. As you can see fc+ is the last stage where
the time is measured referenced to second crack.
I read the guide like this:
light  Fc occurs just before second crack, I currently understand this to
mean that with beans that do not have very early first outliers of second
crack this fc lite is before you start the first few sc snaps.
The following is what Tom is saying about full city plus:
This image represents the darker side of a Full City roast, where the coffee
has barely entered 2nd crack, and 10 seconds of snaps are heard, and the
roast...
So one part of the difficulty with FC is that it can occur both just before
and a little into second crack, and that second crack itself is in Toms
words, a little less prodictible, and to make the whole thing worse at least
for the very dark roasts, second crack will progress very different
depending on the roaster you are using, and also I believe depending on the
beans you are roasting. Some beans will almost blend the end of first crack
and the start of second crack so the 2 things almost happens at the same
times, while other beans have a long quiet period between the end of the
first crack and the start of second crack.
In my Hottop I am hearing some beans going into second cracks maybe 30
seconds or more before what I consider to be the real second crack is
starting, but it is not a general rule very different for each bean. This is
one of the good reasons for tracking roast time for the different coffees so
you know what to expect the next time you dive into the coffee bags and
reroast the same coffee weeks from now.
At least this is my understanding of these roasting stages, but remember
that the person doing the roasts ultimately decides how the coffee should be
roasted to each individual taste. Toms notes on each coffee is a very good
reason to buy beans from SM, but with some roasting experiences and often
also from obvious roasting mistakes you will learn how your roast
preferences differs from Toms. I usually roast a little darker than
suggested especially with Kenyan beans, since I seem not to like the very
light roasted high notes as much as Tom seems to do.
Claus Thøgersen

On Jan 6, 2005, at 2:44 PM, Michael Douglas-Llyr wrote:
<Snip>
Nope, on the verge is when, deep down in your bones, you know the first 
outliers are about to hit second crack.
       Jim Gundlach

Thanks for the replies. I guess a Variac is going to figure somewhere
in my future. ;) Not any time soon though. In the last month I've
bought 2 new brewers and a press pot, a new grinder, and lots of
beans, as well as all of those little ancillary items we "need."  I
need to lay low on cash flow for a bit!
Demian, as a result of trying a roast with my Toastmaster popper
(instead of my usual Poppery II) I now actually know what a "rolling"
2nd crack sounds like. I thought I had hit 2nd on other occassions,
but uh-uh. *lol*
DEchelbarg, I tried an experiment last night but haven't tasted the
coffee yet. I let my roast go through 1st crack and when I was sure
that it was over, I took the top off the popper, titlted it a bit, and
stirred about every 20-30 seconds. This had the effect of lengthening
the time to 2nd crack (which was never reached at all). I ended these
roasts at 4 minutes or so after the end of 1st crack. I'm wondering if
I can't approximate your method by replacing the lid at some point
before ending the roast.
On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 16:22:45 EST, DEchelbarg  wr=
ote:
<Snip>
I
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r I
<Snip>
e
<Snip>
-- 
The Crystal Wind is the storm, and the storm is data, and the data is life.
                                                  Daniel Keyes Moran â€=
”
The Long Run

If that's the marker that gets you the roasted flavors you like.
It's all a continuum, and each roaster/bean is different.  Do what tastes 
good to you and don't get your knickers in a wad about the exact moment of 
caramelization or crack or whatever.
Roast coffee...have fun.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] somewhere in the subject line of any email correspondence)
*********************

At 5:34 PM -0500 1/06/05, Ed Needham wrote:
<Snip>
Words of wisdom.
--E

In a message dated 1/6/2005 5:36:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
xhepera writes:
DEchelbarg, I tried an experiment last night but haven't tasted the
coffee yet. I let my roast go through 1st crack and when I was sure
that it was over, I took the top off the popper, titlted it a bit, and
stirred about every 20-30 seconds. This had the effect of lengthening
the time to 2nd crack (which was never reached at all). I ended these
roasts at 4 minutes or so after the end of 1st crack. I'm wondering if
I can't approximate your method by replacing the lid at some point
before ending the roast.
I guess it depends on what the temp was doing in your roaster.  I'm talking 
about holding temp, or slowing the ramp, not decreasing temp so the beans stop 
roasting --  great fun isn't it?  The learning curve is wonderful
Dave E

If you stop after the first two pops, then you only have two beans that hit 
second crack.  I really don't think we need to be this anal about the 
'exact' stopping point.  If I were commercial roaster with 20,000 pounds a 
week to deliver, and a 500 pound load, then I'd want to make sure each batch 
stopped at exactly the right point, so I could crank out roast after roast 
of exactly the same level of roast.  For a homeroaster, it's absurd and 
useless to try to get that much homogeneity.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] somewhere in the subject line of any email correspondence)
*********************

Well said, Ed !
On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:51:56 -0500, Ed Needham  wrote:
<Snip>

In a message dated 1/6/2005 6:36:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
garybt3 writes:
Well said, Ed !
On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:51:56 -0500, Ed Needham  wrote:
<Snip>
Ed, you are most certainly right.  It is, however, fun to try and "hit it."  
I think this whole coffee roasting thing is a quest after some kind of grail 
-- fun to try and reach it -- even though taste wise you may not need to.  I 
just have had a lot of satisfaction when I found how to roast to a true Full 
City based on my senses -- just was pleased -- could have high fived someone!  
That's all.
Dave E

On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 14:44:12 -0600, Michael Douglas-Llyr
 wrote:
<Snip>
om
<Snip>
I consider "on the verge" to be that point where I know I'm going to
get my first crackles any second if I don't stop IMMEDIATELY. 
Sometimes I'm not quick enough cooling the beans down and I get a
couple snaps....
Grace and Peace,
  `tim
-- 
Rev. Tim TenClay
Dunningville Reformed Church (www.dunningville.org)
Knots & More Tatting Supplies (www.knotsandmore.com) NATA #253

I try to hit a mark too when I roast, but it's not critical with small batch 
homeroasting, and missing a mark or not aiming so critically can sometimes 
lead to surprises.  I'm not advocating 'seat of the pants' roasting, but at 
times we can get a bit weird in the level of precision we foist on a 
beginner roaster, and honestly, nine out of ten homeroasters likely couldn't 
tell the difference.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] somewhere in the subject line of any email correspondence)
*********************

I'm one of those that probably can't tell the difference. But as I
learn I find myself trying to roast close to Tom's review (at least
initially) and then comparing my results to his descriptions. It's
hard to get one's pallate to pull out all the different flavors.
That's the practice and the FUN.
Demian
On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:28:25 -0500, Ed Needham  wrote:
<Snip>

Hmmm.... I've been trying to refine my "SOPR" methods for a couple of years
now and just recently determined that supporting my "SOP" with a stool makes
the 15 minute sojourn much more comfortable.
Motion seconded.
admin] On Behalf Of Ed Needham
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 7:28 PM
I'm not advocating 'seat of the pants' roasting, but at 
times we can get a bit weird in the level of precision we foist on a 
beginner roaster, and honestly, nine out of ten homeroasters likely couldn't
tell the difference.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] somewhere in the subject line of any email correspondence)
*********************

Tim TenClay wrote:
<Snip>
Yep, that basically the indicator. (at least to me)

Calling verge of 2nd is more of a sense, for me.  I do keep an eye on
the timer but tend to trust the sound and smell of the roast.  If I get
a few pops into 2nd, it's not an issue.  I figure that with the amount
of beans I'm roasting in the SC/TO, if I'm anywhere between 2-10 pops
into 2nd, most of the roast is probably at the verge. 
And, with apologies to Pedro Almodóvar and the list, this topic really
suggest a homeroasting movie:  Roasters on the Verge of a Nervous [2nd]
Crackdown".
Brent
Roasting in an SC/TO
For drip, moka, and presspot brew
<Snip>

Not being familiar with other roasters, I don't know if this will apply to
all.  But with my SC/CO, I can detect a marked increase in smoke about
15sec. before any outliers of 2nd crack.  A dead giveaway is the scent of
the smoke is also very sweet compared to the smoke during or after 1st
crack.  That is my signal that I'm at a good FC, and shortly thereafter the
roast is at "the verge of 2nd".
I do agree though, that this hobby should be fun and whatever works best is
what's best.  I sense the reason for the initial post is a desire for
repeatability.  It would make sense to strive for that ideal, but that
striving can make one senseless if we idealize the perfect roast.  For me,
as much as I hate change, in roasting a moving target keeps things lively.
Roasting in the shade, in M'waukee,
peter schmidt

Well said Peter.  I have noticed these changes before second crack and
have read others describing the smell and smoke, however your accurate
description of the smell and time of the smoke really crystallized my
experience into a functional knowledge.  Jared.
On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 11:25:12 -0600, Peter Schmidt  wrote=
:
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o
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<Snip>
is
<Snip>
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<Snip>
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<Snip>
ribes) go tohttp://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>

<Snip>
Same experience here.  I had noticed all the details...but they remained 
unassociated until Peter's post.  Very useful - even to those of us who 
continue on to darker roasts.
Gene Smith
riding the wild learning curve, in Houston

Well, I'll throw in my 2 cents worth...I just finished roasting 2 &
1/2 #'s with 4 poppers, and I rotate through them to allow them to
adequately cool down between roasts. I realized that the verge of 2nd
Crack is somewhat different for every roaster. I think that it's going
to vary, based on how familiar you are with your particular roasting
methods. I pretty much 'know' my particular machines characteristics.
Two of my Poppery 1 machines always give a little smoke before the
outliers snap. One machine, another Poppery just jams into 2nd with
out any warning. My other machine is a PopCorn Pumper and I have a tin
can tightly pressed into the chamber. I can tell by the sounds of the
beans as they hit the can when 2nd is about to hit.
My advice is to take your particular popper into 2nd while watching a
stop watch. If, for example, you hit 2nd at 8minutes, then try
stopping the next roast at 7:45. Then if that's not quite 'light'
enough, then stop it at 7:30. Using a marker, write it down on a
label, and put it on your machine. Easy, right?
Well, ensure that your popper is resting, about an hour is a good time, I think.
Why? Back to Back roasts in a "hot' Popper are going to happen much sooner.
Also, weigh the beans. I stick with 4 oz. in each roast. It's easier
math for me. I usually try blending, and I get a box of cheap
sandwitch bags, and mark each roast. So if I want to try different
ratios, it's a little easier. And 4 bags = 1 pound.
Bear in mind, I'm focusing on helping you with air poppers and finding
an easier way to locate 'pre- 2nd crack'...Smoke and
mirrors...magicians, we are...to the masses!
I also use a GG/SC. and do 12 oz roasts. Sometimes I just like to try
different things. I grafted a poppery 2 roasting chamber ( swirled
vents) to a prestolite 1440 watt heater and fan assy. real easy.
Tomorrow, I'll open up the metal vents to increase airflow. Then, I'll
look into devising a way to turn the heater on and off, manually.
Don't get hung up with the details...Just make it work, for you.
YMMV. I can still smell the roast on my fingers...I'm getting another
'Red Stripe' and watching a movie! Good Luck!
Gary

Using a drum roaster and gas grill I have noticed that as first crack slows
to a stop so does the smoke, as the roast continues toward 2nd crack there
is little or no smoke, about 15 or 20 seconds before the first snaps of 2nd
crack the smoke will start again. It will have a sharp stinging smell to the
nose, stop it here for Full city . The smell will sweeten a bit as 2nd
progresses there is a very thin line for the sweet spot. I have found that
smoke turns to a more sweet smell at or near 30 to 45 sec into 2nd crack. It
takes practice to know when to dump the batch to get the sweet spot, because
you have to do it before it actually gets there to allow time to remove the
drum and dump the beans into the cooler.
RK
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On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:22:46 -0500, R.N.Kyle  wrote:
<Snip>
Excellent info provided by Ron. 
I'll throw in my 2 cents, I'll be the first to admit to being a
"temperature roaster". The first snaps of second, depending on what
time and temp ramp are used, occur anywhere between 442.5F and 450F. 
Mostly 442.5F to 445F, but the Oaxaca Pluma Hidalgo was at 450F in my
setup.
So for a Full City roast, I use 445F as my final temp and note whether
or not I get the first snaps of second. I'll cup the results and
decide from there if I want to take the next roast darker or lighter.
If I got the first snaps of second at 445F then typically I'll back
off to 442.5F if I want to roast to the "verge of 2nd without entering
it".
Respectfully,
  Felix