HomeRoast Digest

Topic: SCAA Color Cards (66 msgs / 1246 lines)
1) From: ginny
if I could get pics of the colors I could fire tiles...
not a big deal, just a little time in getting the right glaze fired.

2) From: ginny
I was thinking more like roasting to the perfect color and then matching the glaze to the bean. hence a pic to getg the color good. maybe I will just buy the color cards and match them.

3) From: ginny
just plain Mike:
thanks for you kind offer.
just talked to a friend who may have a set for me for FREE (read we like free) and I can go from there.
my new kilns will be here in a week or two and I will get started. my guess is 30/60 days, we must consider
test time. I will fire them in a gas raku kiln which may help retain color. maybe? testing this idea I got;
in the end they will be inexpensive to produce and it sounds like tons of Traditions to me!! heck, I would sell them
too... great giveaways for the Summer Gathering I too...
I have time now to play with my other projects and fun stuff

4) From: ginny
I have a set of SCAA chips coming next week. I am going to use them to do some sets in the gas raku kiln and se what happens.

5) From: ginny
Those are great ideas.
I will play with the thoughts while waiting for my new gas raku, lots of heat control with the gas.

6) From: ginny
I just drew a very art deco shape demi-tasse the would work well...
mugs are tuff since we all like the feeling of our fave, why not lister who are interested post to Bens roasting site on Yahoo you favorite "mug shot" (I have mine) and we can all decide down the line what shapes we want.
Ben will post his site for me since I don't have it handy this second.
Everyone likes mugs of differen

7) From: ginny
thanks benny,
I just put it in my tool bar...
this will be fun.
I was just thinking that glass would keep/hold the color perfectly, hmmmm

8) From: ginny
great and  thanks, way too much work dude like you don't have enough to do?
the effort. And it is still usable today ... unlike a lot of little 
projects I do that seem obsolete as soon as I finish them (ON that 
note, I am posting moisture content readings for every single coffee 
in review sections today, work I did a while back and never followed 
through on! I will update them every month too.)

9) From: ginny
great idea but having them the correct size after firing is/would be the issue. 
that's the problem with hand done pieces.
you could have a couple of  "standard" sizes and get darn close.

10) From: ginny
yes, pantone...
I did not even think of that!

11) From: Dwayne T Walker
Hi Group
I have read that the SCAA produces a series of color cards used to identify 
the deepness of your roast. My understanding is that these are really for 
comparative reference and not a strict grading value but none the less I 
decided that I wanted some. Unfortunately I don't see them offered any 
ware. I emailed the SCAA but haven't had a response. Does anyone know where 
these cards might be had? Assuming that I am remembering correctly and it 
was in fact the SCAA that produced them in the first place. And of course 
that they are still being produced.

12) From: Maryann & Dave Schellenberg
They're still on the web site - http://www.scaa.org/shop/products_catalog.asp?categoryOLS$195 to members, $295 to non-members.
Dave S.
Dwayne T Walker wrote:

13) From: Maryann & Dave Schellenberg
I don't think pictures would do it.
First you have to specify what kind of light is on the tiles when they 
are being photographed.
If taken with a digital camera, there is always colour-balancing 
processing within the camera
How would you view the photo - if on your computer monitor, then it 
would have to be colour-matched to the camera.
If printed, there are the variables of printer, ink, and paper.
Nevertheless, if I had the tiles, I would send you a picture, but the 
prices are too rich for me.
Dave S.
ginny wrote:

14) From: Michael Dhabolt
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I would be prepared to contribute to the project.  See how many people are
interested, split the cost of the SCAA cards.  And of course contribute
whatever stipend you would feel appropriate for your time, shipping,
supplies etc.
Mike (just plain)

15) From: john kahla
Hi Group,
I too have been trying to get this color thing down. Everything
depends upon light, what kind of product the color is on etc. Dumb
question and this is for Tom as well. Would it be possible for Tom to
roast some beans to say six different roasts, divide them up into
smaller groups and sell the smaller groups to us? That way it does not
really matter what light because we would be able to compare the two
colors under the same light, it really wouldn't matter what kind of
bean as it would all be an average. Since the type of beans would not
really matter, it could the "s..t" beans Tom uses for samples of bad
beans. Would hate to see Lot 143 used. But all of us would be able to
see what it called a city roast, a city+ roast etc.
Tom I for one would be more than willing to purchase some samples of
the various roasts so that I could get mine more in the ball park.

16) From: Ben Treichel
ginny wrote:
Gin, probably not (maybe close). The tiles have a very specific 
pigmentation to take into account lighting temp, etc. In addition, they 
have a special glaze that you need to hald at a specifc angle to make it 
go away, to get the color right. How they make them was just in Roast 
magazine. FYI, the best issue ever.

17) From: Gary Bennett
I don't know if the picture fourth from the bottom is any use:http://www.coffeewisdom.com/coffee/coffee_pictures_and_stuff.htmRegards, Gary
On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:04:39 -0800, john kahla  wrote:

18) From: Pecan Jim Gundlach
One needs to remember that these color tiles are designed to be used 
with ground coffee.
      Jim Gundlach
On Mar 14, 2005, at 5:25 AM, Gary Bennett wrote:
"The espresso machine is an accessory to the grinder, not the other way 

19) From: Barbara Greenspon
Wow, that sounds like a great idea if Tom would be willing. 
john kahla wrote:

20) From: Dan Bollinger
Nice idea, but there is one glitch.  Coffee continues to darken with time.
The idea of a color standard is that it doesn't change over time.

21) From: john kahla
Good point Dan. Never thought about that. The thing is I really would
only need about two weeks with the samples before I had a pretty good
idea of where my roast was at. Also what would happen if they were
frozen after they arrive or if they were ground? Do they still change
color and if so how fast? Actually even swatches of paint samples from
the local hardware store would be ok if someone who knew the colors
picked them out. Am not trying to be a expert on color but as a newbie
would love to have a starting point that was even close.

22) From: Angelo
Whatever happened to the idea of using color swatches from a national brand 
paint company. Someone with a good eye for color matching could select the 
card numbers that correspond to the agtron tiles and we could all have a 
set just by going to the paint store and picking them out...
Seems simpler than going to all the work that is involved with making your 

23) From: miKe mcKoffee

24) From: Dan Bollinger
Mike, I'll save you the trouble.  Here they are.  I distributed about twenty
sets of these back then. I noticed that no one used them to talk about their
roasts. Therefore, I can only assume that they are somehow inadequate or
unhandy to use.  Danhttp://www.claycritters.com/coffee/coffee_roast_colors.htm

25) From: miKe mcKoffee

26) From: john kahla
Thanks for the info Dan. Now the only thing is to find a Sherman
Williams and get the chips.

27) From: Zara Haimo
A couple of years ago, some kind person on this list sent several of us a
very useful set of paint chips that covered much of the range of the SCAA
color samples- can't remember who it was, sorry.  I used them for quite a
while to check my roasts.

28) From: Pecan Jim Gundlach
        I was one who got the set of paint chips and I do appreciate the 
effort.  I compared my roasts with them but when it came time to talk 
about degree of roast, I knew most of the people on the list did not 
have them so I resorted to the old phrases such as "just before second 
crack" or "a few seconds into second crack" because I knew more people 
could understand it.
       Jim Gundlach
On Mar 14, 2005, at 1:16 PM, Dan Bollinger wrote:
"The espresso machine is an accessory to the grinder, not the other way 

29) From: Pecan Jim Gundlach
If the glazes can be identified, how about a nice coffee mug finished 
with glazes to match different degrees of roast.  People could keep one 
or more of them handy.  Or, if the glazes are incompatible, a set of 
mugs with about six different degrees of roast.   Or maybe a plate with 
twelve degrees of roast at the different hours of the clock so owners 
of the plate could say something like "I took it to about 7:45", which 
would mean three quarters of the way to the 8:00 color past 7:00.
        Just stream of consciousness running here.
            Jim Gundlach
On Mar 14, 2005, at 1:44 PM, ginny wrote:
"The espresso machine is an accessory to the grinder, not the other way 

30) From: John Blumel
On Mar 14, 2005, at 2:56pm, Pecan Jim Gundlach wrote:
I think one of the problems with the "paint chip" approach to defining 
roast points is that, while it's based on the idea of the Agtron tiles, 
the Agtron tiles are meant to be used in a very specific way, using, as 
has been pointed out, ground coffee that is evenly spread, to a certain 
depth, in petri dishes -- I think there are other requirements as well 
but I don't recall what they are. While this may work fine for a single 
bean/blend roasted in a given roaster, I don't think it works well for 
comparing different coffees roasted in different roasters. And, it 
isn't intended to work at all for whole beans.
Of course, "just before second crack" or "a few seconds into second 
crack" aren't very precise either and give varying results with 
different coffees and different roasters. However, as Jim points out, 
at least for home roasters, it's a more universal language and doesn't 
require anyone to have special color tiles or chips or whatever and for 
everyone to use them in the same way to understand what is meant.
John Blumel

31) From: miKe mcKoffee
I agree, great ideas Jim. If some enterprising soul (Ginny) came up with a 
mug striped with varying degrees of roast I suspect some crazy people would 
even pay to have a set of them. (Like most people on this List I suspect, 
myself included;-) Might even be some established "online presence" 
interested in selling them on a regular basis, eh Tom!
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer etc.http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm

32) From: miKe mcKoffee

33) From: john kahla
Hi everyone,
Just got back from Sherman Williams and they told me that they have
not had these colors for a couple of years so back to the start.

34) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
This was a ***GREAT*** idea and I think a lot of people appreciated 
the effort. And it is still usable today ... unlike a lot of little 
projects I do that seem obsolete as soon as I finish them (ON that 
note, I am posting moisture content readings for every single coffee 
in review sections today, work I did a while back and never followed 
through on! I will update them every month too.)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                   "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
            Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
                      http://www.sweetmarias.com                Thompson Owen george

35) From: Ben Treichel
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roasting_Data/files/Watch it the moderator is your nemesis :-P
ginny wrote:
Ben Treichel
Program Manager
S.E Michigan
248-232-7365 (o)
248-935-6845 (m)

36) From: Mark A. Chalkley
On Monday, March 14, 2005, 4:04:42 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
TMSMsC> This was a ***GREAT*** idea and I think a lot of people appreciated 
TMSMsC> the effort. And it is still usable today ... unlike a lot of little 
TMSMsC> projects I do that seem obsolete as soon as I finish them (ON that 
TMSMsC> note, I am posting moisture content readings for every single coffee 
TMSMsC> in review sections today, work I did a while back and never followed 
TMSMsC> through on! I will update them every month too.)
I went back through my archived messages and found that I sent a message to the
list asking about color chips on Sep 16, 2002, and Dan had come up with them by
the 18th.  I was one of the ones he sent them to, and I still use them to log
every one of my roasts.  I'd still prefer that we use them on the list because,
though the system has its limitations and faults (what doesn't?), it still
conveys a lot of useful info that's hard to come by any other way.
So, for what it's worth, Dan, the set you sent me gets used every other day, and
I'm still very grateful to have it!
Mark C.

37) From: Ben Treichel
ginny wrote:
Actually Peter In LHC's wife has a kiln and at one time was talking 
about making ceramic tampers.
Ben Treichel
Program Manager
S.E Michigan
248-232-7365 (o)
248-935-6845 (m)

38) From: John Blumel
On Mar 14, 2005, at 3:39pm, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
Well, it was bound to happen eventually.
John Blumel

39) From: Dan Bollinger
Tom, I'm glad you think the chips value. Of course, implementation is
another subject.  ;)  Dan

40) From: Dan Bollinger
to the
them by
day, and
Mark, that's good to know. I'm pleased they are useful. If the rest of us
begin using the chips your database will be invaluable.  Dan

41) From: petzul
That's Correct Ben, and she hasn't forgotten :-) .
She had to give up throwing clay for a while since she had her hip 
replaced. Her recovery is coming along nicely and she is about ready to 
start back making pottery again.
I do need a new tamper and another coffee cup after all.
And I need the size tamper you want.
Ben Treichel wrote:

42) From: petzul
Gin, the clay does shrink when it is dried and then fired, but with 
practice you can get good at predicting the final outcome.
I do not pretend to be able to do this, but she has made tops to replace 
those that were broken in shipment for her casserole dishes.
Perhaps she will need to make a few tampers at a time and just pick the 
one that fits the best?
Will let you know.
ginny wrote:

43) From: Dwayne T Walker
Well I seam to have missed the first few replies on this thread but 
gathered them from the archive. And may I say holey moley! $295 I am much 
more likely to spend that on a new roaster!
The paint chips are a good and economical solution, thanks for the effort, 
I will be looking up the paint store. I like the idea of the tiles but also 
recognize the difficulty in producing them.
Tom, every bit of information benefits me!
--On Monday, March 14, 2005 1:19 PM -0800 ginny 

44) From: John Blumel
On Mar 14, 2005, at 4:00pm, john kahla wrote:
They change their bases occasionally, which changes all the other 
John Blumel

45) From: Dwayne T Walker
Isn't there a color standard in the panting and printing industry like CMYK 
or something like that. They may use RGB but I can't remember. In either 
case if we could get a color reference from such a standard it would not 
have to be generated again.
--On Monday, March 14, 2005 11:58 PM -0500 John Blumel 

46) From: Dwayne T Walker
OH I new it started with a P :-)
--On Monday, March 14, 2005 9:36 PM -0800 ginny 

47) From: Ben Treichel
Dan Bollinger wrote:
Dan I thougth part of the problem was that as soon as you got the colors 
right S/W changed to the next set of paint colors.

48) From: Ben Treichel
petzul wrote:
58 would be cool.

49) From: Dan Bollinger
Drat. I was afraid of that.   :(    I used S-W originally since they only
change their colors every ten years or so. Other companies do so every year.
unsvbscribes) go tohttp://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>

50) From: Dan Bollinger
There are many color standards, Pantone (PMS), Munsel (my favorite), Faber,
etc.  The problem is, there is now way to get an inexpensive 'chip' of these
colors.  What I did originally was order the 8x10" color sheets from S-W and
cut them into 2x2s for people.  Dan
unsvbscribes) go tohttp://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>

51) From: Dan Bollinger
S-W is an industrial supplier. As such, they rarely change their colors,
only when they changed to a new paint formula did they have to reformulate
their colors.  Unlike home decorator and hardware stores, which change their
meager selection each year to match the annually published interior
designers pallette.

52) From: Dan Bollinger
You may have to fire the part with 'machine stock'. That is, extra large.
Then, use a post-process to reduce it to diameter. This would give you the
opportunity to produce a perfectly round tamper to the exact diameter.
i.e., grind it to shape.  Dan

53) From: john kahla
I emailed SW yesterday asking if they had a list of new numbers which
were identical to the old numbers on the list. As soon as I get a
reply will post it here in the group. From the number of replies on
this question it seems that this is something a lot of us can benefit
from so will keep on with SW to try and get a solution.

54) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 13:29 3/14/2005, Ben Treichel typed:
I actually have a porcelain one that just needs to be fired.  I thought 
about "coffee" washing it before firing it, probably just turn grey though.
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

55) From: AlChemist John
It was recommended I use porcelain as it is the finest clay and shrinks the 
Sometime around 20:06 3/14/2005, petzul typed:
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

56) From: Dwayne T Walker
that's John wonderful, I for one really appreciate it.
--On Tuesday, March 15, 2005 5:58 AM -0800 john kahla  

57) From: Demian Ebert
I should have guessed that someone on this list was using the munsell
charts. Sort of on a lark, I borrowed a munsell soil color chart from
the office for a while. I tried characterizing my roasted coffees
according to these charts, but w/o a reference I had a hard time doing
anything useful with it. If you know that a FC is supposed to be a
10YR3/4 then I have something to work with. Has someone set standards
with this system?
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:50:00 -0500, Dan Bollinger

58) From: Dan Bollinger
Demian, I've not, since few people use the Munsell colors.  That's a shame,
because I can imagine '10YR3/4' in my head. That's what's great about the
Munsell system. Also, it has the capability of expanding when new pigments
are invented. Many systems do not.  Dan

59) From: John Blumel
On Mar 15, 2005, at 8:58am, john kahla wrote:
There aren't actually any new numbers that are identical to the old 
numbers so, depending on the exact wording of your question, who reads 
it and maybe their mood that day, they may tell you just that.
However, the last time they changed their bases/colors, even though the 
old colors could not be duplicated exactly, they did have a formula to 
get as close as possible to the old color. (This seemed to consist 
mostly of adding some additional amount of black pigment. Touch up a 
spot in the middle of the wall and it obviously didn't match. Paint all 
the way to the corners and it was difficult to see the difference from 
the adjoining wall.)
So, they may have a list of what color you start with before you modify 
it to get something close to the old color.
John Blumel

60) From: Dan Bollinger
John, This reminds me. The same thing happened when I wanted to remix a wall
color from a number of years ago.  The could still mix #1641. In their new
line, the matching color was now #R1641.   This helps in mixing, but not in
finding new color chips.

61) From: Justin Marquez
With the computer color matching capabilities of most paint stores, if
we had some samples of known roast level coffees, we could probably
get paint mixed for the different roasts and make our own danged paint
chips.  The down side is that I think they will only custom mix a
minimum of a gallon.
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (Snyder, TX)http://www.justinandlinda.com Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before.
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:40:47 -0500, Dan Bollinger

62) From: Dan Bollinger
Gallons!?  You're going to the wrong place.  I get quarts from our ICI
supplier all the time.

63) From: johngullam
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
My local Benjamin Moore dealer has a paint match device, about the size 
of a, that will sample about 1"x1" and read out the Benjamin 
Moore code, and they will mix 4 oz. samples.  They also have a 
CD-Rom/Web program that displays all the colors in the catalog - you can 
even 'paint' your own images.
Justin Marquez wrote:

64) From: john kahla
Hi group,
I have gotten small paint samples from SW this afternoon and have not
yet had a reply to my email to them about the old paint codes. I have
also contacted the local store about getting larger ( 8x11 ) samples
and what they would cost.
I have talked to Tom and he is willing to take a look at the paint
samples and match them up as close as can be to the SCAA codes and
roast names. Thank you Tom !!!!
Then what I plan to do is list the numbers along with the information
from Tom so that if you want you can go to the paint store and make
your own kit or I will be putting kits together for those who do not
have a SW in their town or would rather just pay to get one in the
This is all a selfish motive as I want a kit. Will keep everyone
posted on the progress and hope to have something more definite by
next week sometime.

65) From: petzul
Thanks for your efforts in this John.
I too am looking forward to the results.
Looking forward to see what to really call my roasts, here in LHC.
john kahla wrote:

66) From: Pecan Jim Gundlach
Being color illiterate, I had never heard about the Munsell color 
system and when it was mentioned here, I went out on the web to learn 
what I could.   I found a program for the Mac called BabelColor that 
let me play with changing colors while displaying the Munsell HVC 
values along with the values of a few other systems of representing 
color.  My crude first estimate, using a laptop display, is 1.8Y 
1.7/4.1 for my image of Full City and 2.5Y 4.4/7.3 for Cinnamon I also 
ran across the following data base of ceramic glazes that includes 
Munsell values.
    http://www.aist.go.jp/RIODB/ccdb/index.html   I have not tried to access it because I don't know what I would do 
with it. I don't know if it is free or not, but those of you more 
knowledgeable about color and ceramic glazing might want to give it a 
Does anyone know if Munsell values have been produced for the SCAA 
color tiles?
             Jim Gundlach
"The espresso machine is an accessory to the grinder, not the other way 

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