<Snip> That statement is completely misleading if not totally in error. Some of the finest espresso cafes (all that I know of actually), ones that pull excellent shots, do not roast dark well into 2nd. I think you'd find quite a few if not the majority of List members who are into espresso don't roast dark either. If you're talking Charbucks sure, but *$ does not equal good espresso. Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before. |
I've gotta agree with Mike on this one. Espresso is a coffee extraction method not a roast level. I had sort of forgotten this recently and had only been pulling shots of Espresso Monkey. But seeing Mike talk about pulling shots of the Panamanian Trio reminded me to use Sylvia for other coffees as well. The best shot I've made in the last week or so has been a delicious Bugisu ristretto from a City+ roast rested about four days. Mmm-mmm good. I still love Espresso Monkey, but mixing it up has been great. Peace, love, and coffee, Jim On 7/6/06, miKe mcKoffee wrote: <Snip> -- Roasting them almost as fast as they come |
<Snip> I mostly roast a few snaps into 2nd. For lattes, I prefer a slightly darker roast to cut through the milk. For straight shots, I often like a slightly lighter roast. I usually pull shots from single origin beans. A good shot, pulled right, is very sweet and rich without any sugar or cream added. |
More like common misconception that roasts for espresso "are supposed to be" FC+++ and beyond. Misconception seemingly proliferated by many places that routinely over roast (aka Charbucks and those that follow their lead). Why do they roast so varietal characteristics are far over shadowed by the roast itself, often to nothing but burnt taste? Lots of speculation on that. Burnt taste doesn't taste as "stale" as a well roasted varietal at oh lets say 18 months old (Common to see "best if used by" dates in that range), cheaper beans lacking good varietal character still will display plenty of burnt taste, burnt cuts through copious milk, sugar and flavorings. You name it, I don't know. A growing number of Third Wave espresso cafes do not follow Charbucks lead. For instance Stumptown doesn't even do any blender sugar/flavored to death beverages not to mention their Hairbender blend targeted for their espresso machines is anything but dark roasted! As far as espresso essentially a pots worth of coffee bang into a single cup, you are of course welcome to your opinion. Possibly formed by experiences with sub quality espresso "out there". Caffeine wise a shot of espresso actually has less than a cup of coffee brewed from the same amount same coffee. A huge part of the essence of espresso is the linger. In that respect a pots worth of coffee compared to a shot of espresso might hold true. IE the linger from a shot may last about as long as it would take to drink a full pot of coffee! Pulled a ristretto shot of Panama Gesha today I was still tasting 45 minutes later. The subtleties of this Light Full City roasted (no 2nd) Gesha are in fact magnified in a shot versus other brewing methods. Strong to be sure, but no bitterness or harshness etc, and smooth as silk. As far as good espresso blends go they run the gambit of taste profiles not just lower tones, if that's what you meant by robust or super strong flavors. Generally speaking yes commercial espresso blends target a more balanced blend than say a shot of City+ Yirg which I guarantee has some 'strong' bright flowery flavors! And many Third Wave espresso places are getting into SO (single origin) espresso more too, not just home espresso fiends. Quality espresso may be even more misunderstood by the masses than a quality cup of other method brewed coffee. I'm just beginning to get a fairly good grasp of espresso after 4 years with Silvia and now the Bricoletta. Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before. <Snip> |
I think Aaron and you agree on this Mike, particularly where he states "Much into 2nd crack seems to lose too much of the flavor..." I think you misread what Aaron said. We need to save our disagreements for when we disagree... Brett On 7/6/06, miKe mcKoffee wrote: <Snip> -- Regards, Brett Mason HomeRoast Zassman |
I do believe that alot of Southern Italian Coffee shops roast their blends for espresso darker, it is not a *$ invention, just because you hate the company, don't hate all the methods. Long before i ever heard of Starbucks i have been drinking espresso from California and the west coast, to New York, Philly and Boston. I am not talking foo foo coffee places, but honest small coffee roasters and real espresso shops, Most if not all use a darker Italian roasted Coffee for espresso. Now i understand that SO espresso's where you are looking for an origin flavor you would not want to roast darker. Unfortunately most smaller roasters and coffee shops don't have more than one espresso roast, i guess its economics or training of staff, so they go with what they do. With my little El Espresso i don't make great espresso, i make darn good espresso, but i still prefer a nice light Vienna roast because i mostly drink Cap's. When i can get a really nice machine i will experiment more i am sure. Woody -- "Good night, and Good Coffee" |
As for espresso roast level I've learned to appreciate lighter roasting. Can't beat the sweet fruitiness and liveliness of a well pulled shot of City+ to Full City Monkey Blend. However every 5th roast or so I'll take the Monkey almost a full minute into 2nd. The fruitiness is somewhat subdued but the brooding bittersweet pungency and wineyness that emerge makes this roast level an enjoyable change from the lighter roast. Nobody has mentioned the addition of robusta as a defining taste in many espresso blends. I bet that most of us would not think of drinking a cup of robusta but seek out espresso blends that contain it. I don't like the edge it gives to the taste which is why I stick with Monkey. IMO the robusta is used to enhance crema production and the look of the espresso rather than to enhance the taste. MichaelB On 7/6/06, miKe mcKoffee wrote: <Snip> |
I served espresso in my shop back in 1977. Typically, it was a pretty dark roast back then. ********************* Ed Needham® "to absurdity and beyond!" ed at homeroaster dot com (include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters) ********************* |
Excellent point about Southern Italian style espresso being darker. There's dark roasted and then there's DARK roasted. I'm talking more about all too commonly seen so dark brown virtually black dripping with oil so called "espresso roast" seen all too often "out there". Maybe I'm mistaken but that's not typical Southern Italian style. Of course also huge difference in an under two week old Vienna roast for espresso and 18 month anything roast. Robusta wise seems it's non-use is also part of the Third Wave espresso consciousness with focus on taste and quality. Robusta to "aid crema creation" only need come into play dealing with stale coffee. Though very true some blend with high quality robusta for it's bite, many many premiere espresso blends don't but are 100% Arabica. Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before. From: homeroast-admin [mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Michael Boshes Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 6:57 AM To: homeroast Subject: Re: 'robust'/'espresso' type coffee . RE: Home roasters (was Re: +Lurker on the Food Saver List As for espresso roast level I've learned to appreciate lighter roasting. Can't beat the sweet fruitiness and liveliness of a well pulled shot of City+ to Full City Monkey Blend. However every 5th roast or so I'll take the Monkey almost a full minute into 2nd. The fruitiness is somewhat subdued but the brooding bittersweet pungency and wineyness that emerge makes this roast level an enjoyable change from the lighter roast. Nobody has mentioned the addition of robusta as a defining taste in many espresso blends. I bet that most of us would not think of drinking a cup of robusta but seek out espresso blends that contain it. I don't like the edge it gives to the taste which is why I stick with Monkey. IMO the robusta is used to enhance crema production and the look of the espresso rather than to enhance the taste. MichaelB |