For the record, and discussion. Per document by EPA concerning propane emissions:http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch01/final/c01s05.pdf"188.8.131.52 Criteria Pollutants - LPG is considered a "clean" fuel because it does not produce visible emissions. However, gaseous pollutants such as nitrogen oxides (NOx), carbon monoxide (CO), and organic compounds are produced as are small amounts of sulfur dioxide (SO2) and particulate matter (PM). The most significant factors affecting NOx, CO, and organic emissions are burner design, burner adjustment, boiler operating parameters, and flue gas venting. Improper design, blocking and clogging of the flue vent, and insufficient combustion air result in improper combustion and the emission of aldehydes, CO, hydrocarbons, and other organics. NOx emissions are a function of a number of variables, including temperature, excess air, fuel and air mixing, and residence time in the combustion zone. The amount of SO2 emitted is directly proportional to the amount of sulfur in the fuel. PM emissions are very low and result from soot, aerosols formed by condensable emitted species, or boiler scale dislodged during combustion. Emission factors for LPG combustion are presented in Table 1.5-1." ********************* Ed Needham® "to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters) *********************
Ed, I've wondered about what emissions might be doing to roasts. Coffee is somewhat porous and there is a lot of surface area there. Yet, open flame cooking on propane is commonplace, so I guess the risk is low. Probably the most important risk is CO. Always roast outdoors! Dan <Snip>
Thanks for the quote Ed. I think it is easy to forget that burning propane has consequences. I was looking for a heat source for the warehouse when we had a frigid week, and thought about those exterior patio heaters. I found propane garage heaters for sale, isn't that the same thing? Then I thought about the risks and nixed that idea quick. Remember too that the effluence from roasting coffee in larger quantities requires venting to the outside. The amount of roast smoke in a dark roast of even as little as a Lb or 2 of coffee is not good to inhale. Tom <Snip> -- "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters" Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting - Tom & Maria http://www.sweetmarias.com Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com
As far as roast quality, that is an issue too, especially if there is no forced air movement and you are relying only on convection. I use propane for the 3 barrel sample roaster, but it has solid drums, and pulls air from the front to the back of the drum during the roast. But (while most burn natural gas) many old sample roasters are perforated drum, just like a bbq setup. The greater issue, in terms of flavor, with no air movement in a drum roaster is smoking the coffee in its own effluence. But I do think that even the smallest exchange of air could alleviate this. My .02 cents... Tom -- "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters" Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting - Tom & Maria http://www.sweetmarias.com Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com
<Snip> Tom, there are all kinds of localized heaters. Any with open flames must be used with some ventilation, such as opening a window. This applys to construction heaters, too whether they are fueled by kerosene, NG, or propane. However, the heaters that use the ceramic burners are near 100% efficient and venting is not needed. You don't have to worry about CO, but you do have to worry about O2 consumption, so again, cracking a window is advised. Many warehouses use the overhead heated tube type that warm people with IR. They are vented out the sidewall or roof. Dan <Snip>
CO is a product of incomplete combustion, and I've never measured anything much more than '0' with my CO detector, unless I place the detector right up on the grill when I start the burners. I use my grill/drum setup in my workshop and although I keep the door cracked open a bit, I don't see a threat from CO. My grill is vented, but if there was a significant CO risk, I wouldn't use it indoors. Pooling LP gas is more of a threat in my opinion. ********************* Ed Needham® "to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters) *********************
If I roast after about 8pm, the roast smoke has enough caffeine in it to keep me awake. I never had any effect when roasting in 3 or 4 ounce batches indoors, but with a five pound load, the smoke can be enough to make my clothes and hair smell. Most of the smoke goes up the vent, but when I pull the hot beans out the smoke can get fairly thick and intense. I have not suffered any bad health effects though. ********************* Ed Needham® "to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters) *********************
I have never noticed a smoky taste to the beans I roast, even before I installed the flue, which draws most of the smoke into it by convection. ********************* Ed Needham® "to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters) *********************
Does this mean one should not own or use a gas stove? Kit Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote: <Snip>
I suppose one could own a gas stove without too many consequences. Moving it might be a consideration if one was transient. Using a gas or propane stove on the other hand does require some forethought. Particularly considerations to oxygen supply, fuel leaks, and keeping items that were not intended to in the flame or heat away.
Kit Anderson wrote: <Snip> A gas stove should have a hood that vents outside.
<Snip> <Snip> Yes I suppose the preponderance of professional restaurant kitchens don't have too many consequences from using gas ranges other than better cooking control. Our Viking gas range at home hasn't had too many negative consequences either, but sure is a joy to use. I did once set a paper towel down too close to a burner in use. But gee, an electric burner will ignite a paper towel too. Oh, have you ever noticed how long it takes electric burner elements to cool after turning them off, even those glass top electrics. Much more apt to get burned from an electric than gas IMO. Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before. Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
There was a television series at one time titled "Great Chefs of the = World". The premise was basically an appetizer, entrée, and desert each = prepared on location in a different part of the world. Besides watching world class dishes being prepared by masters, I always found it interesting to see = what passed for professional kitchens around the world. Viking an enviable appliance and I must confess that I have had my eyes = on a dual fuel model. The stopper for me is putting the damn fuel tank in the yard. When I get around to remodeling the kitchen I think I'll go with a = six burner ceramic cook top and a double Thermador convection.
In the electric range manufacturing design group where I worked for eleven years, the ceramic cooktops were referred to as "never cleans." Any drop of water instantly left a ring of lime which took much effort to remove. Come back an hour or so after you finish cooking for the day and they'll have cooled down enough for you to scrub. I never heard of anyone buying a second one. We also called them the "hot rock" school of cooking -- once hot, they stayed hot. When the kettle boils, you'd best have an insulated place to put it since you can't turn down the heat fast enough. Note, this also applies to the Euro style solid cast iron heating elements except they don't look any dirtier after cooking than before. Gas cooktops are awfully nice, but we weren't allowed to say that out loud. Off is off with gas. Roger derbyrmhttp://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
On 2/17/07, derbyrm wrote: <Snip> We absolutely fall into the "won't buy a second one". They are fragile. You can't use regular cast iron skillets on them. They heat slowly and then cool down slowly. And when they need cleaning (frequently, too), it's a frustrating job. Ours in Snyder was a "two-in-one"... "first and last". Safe Journeys and Sweet Music Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)
Aw, Blazes- Just when you get things figured out a little, and a hat trick going too, man say: "...roast smoke in a dark roast of even as little as a Lb or 2 of coffee is not good to inhale." 1. that's all I roast with the HG/DB, soon to be HG/BM- 1->2lbs, and I Pay Taxes to smell the smoke coming from C2, 2. keep roasted beans in capped Mason jars for 1 - 100 hours; after 4hrs I could charge admission to smell the aroma, 3. the bouquet of stirring down the initial volcanic bloom in the TV basket after a minute of the boiling water- Fabulous. = Advance token to Boardwalk, inherit espresso coffee roaster/ shop in Boardwalk Convention Hall! Cheers -RayO, aka Opa! "The indisputable truth is that no coffee is fresh if it isn't fresh roasted." - - Martin Diedrich
Get an under-ground tank. - Steve D
On Feb 17, 2007, at 10:36 PM, Justin Marquez wrote: <Snip> We've had ours for a year and 2 months now and love it. While it does heat up a little slower than we'd like, it cools down about the same as our old electric. And since I'm a messy cook the cleanup is a breeze with the no-scratch Scotchbrite and the cleaner. Not sure about old ones, but the newer ones are more durable than the old ones. They say you could dump cold water on a red hot heating pad and not crack it (I'm not going to try to find out) and I've put a cold pot on a glowing red element and not cracked the top yet. You do have to ditch the cast iron - broke my heart (my wife loved that), but we only had a couple pieces anyway. And it's an excuse to get some new cookware anyway! :) That being said, we'd buy another again - we're very pleased with the performance of this unit.
Yes, my knowledge is dated (pre-1988). The tops look more fragile than they are. Since they are part of what the Underwriter Labs consider an "electrical enclosure" they get lots of severe tests like steel balls dropped from several feet above and cold water poured on the hot surface. If the top ever does crack, stop using it immediately and call an electrician to disconnect it until it's fixed. The electricity inside is potent and spilled water is a good conductor! Electric cooktops have different styles of heating elements. The efficient ones use small diameter tubes, flattened on the top. Unfortunately, on the showroom floor, they rattle and are perceived as being of lesser quality. If you're comparing the glasstop to cooking with one of the big tube styles, you'll find the difference in responsiveness is less. Roger derbyrmhttp://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
A reasonable option and the only one I seriously considered. For me however, the effort / reward of a fuel tank remains heavily weighted on the effort side.
We got ours a couple of years ago ('04?) and we like it very much. I would prefer the "when it's off, it's off" of a gas range, but ours has a convection oven, which I never want to do without again. Cleanup isn't so bad, when you get the right stuff (made especially for glass-topped ranges) and, as for the cast iron, I only use that for baking cornbread, which is ok in the oven. -- Larry J "The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it." - Flannery O'Connor On 2/18/07, Mailing Lists wrote: <Snip>