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Here are some questions that I'm wondering about. What do you label your degree of roast? How do you know? When do they occur? There are several different lists of when a certain degree of roast is reached and they don’t match. Sweet Maria’s list is as follows also with pictures as reference: City + roast at 435°F, about 25 seconds after end of 1st crack Full City roast at 444°F about 25 seconds after 1st ends Full City + at 454°F about 1:50 after 1st endshttp://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.phpThe HRO List has these divisions without temperatures but pictures as reference. Cinnamon roast just after 1st crack New England Roast American Roast City Roast Full City Roast just after 2nd crackhttp://www.homeroasters.org/index.htmKenneth Davids has this list in his book Home Coffee Roasting Cinnamon roast below 400°F New England at 400°F American at 400-415°F City at 415-435°F Full City at435-445°F And also from Sweet Maria’s, this list at the bottom of the page George Steinert's Degree of Roast/Temperature chart: Early yellow at 327°F 1st Crack Begins at 401°F 1st Crack Under Way at 415°F City Roast at 426°F City+ at 435 °F Full City 446 °F Full City+ 454 °F Vienna (Light French) 465 °Fhttp://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.phpHere’s yet another site with variances: (This one is interesting with lots of nice, seemingly accurate descriptions)http://www.cofei.com/categories/degree-of-roast-temperature-description.htmlMy concern is communication amongst us home coffee roasters. My Full City + may be your Full City. Yet your Full City may come after 2nd crack and my Full City is before 2nd is remotely near. Which labeling system do you use? Is there yet another guide you go by? How can we better communicate our roast degree to one another? Some of us are able to determine bean temperature while others know the drum temperature only. Stating the temperature of when your roast ended is of great importance to some while it means nothing to me as there’s no way f= or me to know. All of this occurred to me this afternoon while chatting with the owner of a USRC. He knows as much as possible about his roasts, while I know exhaust temperature and time. Of course, these are both usable factors; I can base roasts on the information and then measure the bean temperature with an IR thermometer immediately upon pulling the drum. That could be great post roast information like recording the weight loss; there’s no way I can kn= ow it before the roast ends in my Gene Café. So, what do we call our roasts? How and why? John Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
I use the Sweet Maria's Degrees of Roast chart as a guide and navigate mostly by the cracks ending my roasts between city to full city+ (with one or two Vienna or French exceptions). I made some notes on the chart and saved it as my background... this is what it looks like.http://s661.photobucket.com/albums/uu332/yakster/?action=view¤t=D=egreeofRoasts.jpg City -- First Crack Ends City + Full City Full City + -- Second Crack Starts Vienna French -- Second crack near end The temperatures that you measure are going to differ by roaster and even the bean colors will differ by method (drum, air, radiant, etc.) so it can be hard to cross-compare. Today I saw the Sivetz chart that describes the degree of roast related to the % change in weight which will probably only further confuse the issue:http://www.sivetzcoffee.com/images/roastdegree1.jpg,but I'm sticking with the Sweet Maria's definitions mainly because I saw them first and there's more background information in the Sweet Maria's library to make a consistent chart out of. -Chris On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 3:02 PM, John A C Despres wr= ote: <Snip> ots <Snip> tml <Snip> + <Snip> ow <Snip> for <Snip> know <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
John A C Despres wrote: <Snip> ur? <Snip> ots <Snip> tml <Snip> + <Snip> ow <Snip> rum <Snip> for <Snip> f a <Snip> know <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 <Snip> Hello, you ask some very cogent questions! :) IMHO you are leaping from the "science of roasting" to the "art of = roasting". You see, everyone and anyone has their own definitions of = what are the different levels of roasting. The only constant seems to = the the much darker, ie. French to Italian roasts. Vienna is considered = Light Vienna or First City+ or Vienna and or First City ++. Depends on = who you read. I use the Behmor 1600 and perform a modified P2, by opening/closing the = door at the height of roasting. I cannot tell you spceifically what level of roast I achieve: The center = of the bean is open, there is little visible chaff, and the chocolate = aroma is always well noted, and the color is a rich brown. ( My rich = brown may not be your rich brown. Art of roasting) The moisture content loss is usually equal to 15% to 18% with an ave of = 16-17% moisture loss. I weigh the green beans then re-weigh after roasting. For me the determining factor is in the cup: Do I have a wondrous Bloom? = Is the aroma Chocolately? When the beans are ground do they release a = pleasing coffee aroma? Finally, does the first sip say AWWWWWW! Then I simply enjoy! Monica Gail Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
Good discussion! When i was roasting on the behmor i dumbed it down to just 4 "roasts" i aim= ed for. If i stopped it as soon as 1C ended i called it city. a few seconds past e= nd of 1C but no hints of 2C was city+. Start of 2C was Full City. anything past that i called Full City+. Anythi= ng more than 5 seconds into 2C i called burnt because through the "cooling"= cycle would add at least an additional 8-15seconds and i didn't enjoy it. Now that i'm learning more about my USRC i'm getting to see the differences= of 2-3 degrees. So when i'm discussing roasts, profiles, and degree of ro= asts with other 'big roaster' owners i talk in terms of temperature. = interesting topic! Michael B <Snip> <Snip> ccur? <Snip> lots <Snip> .html <Snip> ty + <Snip> my <Snip> How <Snip> drum <Snip> ay for <Snip> of a <Snip> st <Snip> ase <Snip> IR <Snip> n know <Snip> tmariascoffee.com <Snip> ffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> g. <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 = Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
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If there is one man in America who knows the true answer to this question i= t = is Don Schoenholt of Gillies Coffee in New York City. I won't go into Don'= s = coffee pedigree, but you can either trust me on this one or look him up. = Gillies has been roasting coffee since 1840. Here's what Don says about th= e = City, Full City, Full City +, etc., quoted from an alt.coffee post: "Newsgroups: alt.coffee Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 12:16 AM Subject: Re: New York Coffee\ <Snip> <Snip> Straight from the Coffeeman's mouth. ********************* Ed Needham "to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com********************* |
Ed, Thanks for sharing, that's interesting and I like to know the historical perspective. It also explains why the "Anglo" roast on the Sivetz chart is so far to the left. The only thing I roast to cinnamon is almonds (to just into first crack). -Chris On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Ed Needham wrote: <Snip> out <Snip> ots <Snip> tml <Snip> + <Snip> ow <Snip> for <Snip> know <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
Hi Ed, Thanks for this. Gillies is one of the places I'd get my coffee when I was living there in the 70s and 80s. It was before the specialty coffee revolution and they were one of the few "old-line" suppliers left. I also don't doubt that Don Schoenholt is a true authority on some aspects of coffee history. His explanation of how the term "City Roast" came into being is interesting and, possibly, might even be true. However, his explanation of the origin of Starbucks dark roast, is second-hand (he was a New Yorker describing a West Coast phenomenon) and wrong. "One hundred years later, the Full City-roast was borrowed by the original Starbuck's partner and roastmaster Gerald Baldwin to describe the dark Dutch roast that he had been taught by Alfred Peet at Peet's in Emoryville CA." This is the received wisdom, something I had also heard and believed, but it's false. With thanks to Starfinder Stanley, whose father was an early Peet's customer, we've been able to learn that Alfred Peet, contrary to popular belief, was a responsible roaster whose coffee was much more popular before Starbucks bought him out and brought in their dark-roast techniques. Alfred Peet was said to have mourned the introduction of heavy dark roasting as the in-house standard. It's speculated that Starbucks got the tradition of roasting that dark from the fishermen of the Pacific Northwest fleet, but they absolutely did not learn it from Alfred Peet. Doug On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Ed Needham wrote: <Snip> out <Snip> ots <Snip> tml <Snip> + <Snip> ow <Snip> for <Snip> know <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
Poor Alfred Peet. He takes the fall for dark roasting, and it wasn't him. I was trying to figure out how the myth came about, since it seems so pervasive, and I think it's pretty simple. The three co-founders of Starbucks, Jerry Baldwin, Zev Siegel and Gordon Bowker, were originally inspired by Alfred Peet, and one or more of them may have even learned roasting directly from him. It would be an easy leap, then, to assume that they learned everything they know about coffee from him. But it turns out that they learned to dark roast after they set up in the Pacific Northwest, and Poor Mr. Peet not only had nothing to do with it, but he downright deplored the practice. Doug On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Doug Hoople wrote: <Snip> tch <Snip> re <Snip> red <Snip> the <Snip> e: <Snip> im <Snip> bout <Snip> lots <Snip> html <Snip> of <Snip> se <Snip> IR <Snip> mariascoffee.com <Snip> mariascoffee.com <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
Hi everyone, I'm new to this list (and new to home-roasting.) Nice to meet you! The book Pour Your Heart into It: How Starbucks Built a Company One Cup at a Time, by Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz describes in detail why and how they made their coffee choices. Schultz and his fellow co-founders were in love with espresso and coffee as it was enjoyed in Italian espresso bars. With Starbucks, they were hoping to recreate the romance they experienced with Italian coffee bars. The Italians used a dark roast, and this is why the Starbucks founders believed it was the best and most authentic. Would anyone on this list argue that a darker roast is better for espresso and/or for milk-based coffee drinks? (Starbucks was a major player in popularizing lattes and other milk-based espresso drinks, so maybe a dark roast made sense in that context?) When Starbucks first got started, they were very relatively serious about coffee quality and authenticity. I'm sure most of us will agree that they lost something with commercialization. Here a link to the book, for those interested:http://www.amazon.com/Pour-Your-Heart-Into-Starbucks/dp/0786883561Cheers, Eliza On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 6:40 PM, Doug Hoople wrote: <Snip> ey <Snip> to <Snip> ." <Snip> ut <Snip> ut <Snip> st <Snip> ss <Snip> tml <Snip> of <Snip> way <Snip> an <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
Correction, he was (and is) a world coffee man. There is no one on the = planet with a more comprehensive knowledge of the history of coffee than Do= n = Schoenholt. Anyone in the coffee trade will back me up on that. I've sat = at his feet and heard more than my mind can fathom about beans, countries, = farms, trade, roasts, and more. Alfred Peet and Don Schoenholt were = friends. Don was well aware of the roasts coming out of Peets roasters. There's not a reference anywhere I could find referring to Peet as an = advocate for light roast. He was Dutch, and his coffee was a much darker = roast than America was used to, which was not a burnt roast but a rich, ful= l = roast to maximize the caramels, the chocolate undertones and the nuttiness = of a full roast. Most coffee Americans were used to was a cinnamon light = roast, and had little of the deep roasty flavors I personally enjoy. I'm not guessing at what I'm saying either. I was there. I began a = coffeehouse in 1977, and I was well aware of the trends in coffee at the = time. Again, you can research it if you want, but if Don says it, I'm = taking it to the bank. You may want to reference this article for a full picture of the coffee = scene at the time.http://www.hospnews.com/images/Nov07web.pdf********************* Ed Needham "to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com********************* |
On 02/20/2010 04:41 PM, Ed Needham wrote: <Snip> I agree. I started drinking Peet's coffee in the early 1970's. The Indonesian blends like Garuda, and Major Dickason's, were always dark, shiny, and oily. Peet's explanation for roasting so dark was that he had to compensate for all the milk Americans put into their coffee. Otherwise, he said, they wouldn't be able to taste the coffee at all. -- Joel Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
Well, this turn of discussion is exactly why I started this thread. And I think it proves my point; What do we call our roasts? <Snip> considered a huge leap to a dark roast. And for the times Mr. Peet was roasting, it probably was a huge leap. It appears Alfred Peet simply roasted darker than what Americans may have been used to, therefore he roasted *dark* coffee. By today's standards, using Starbuck's dark roast as the yardstick to compare to another time in history, is revisionist history. So Mr. Peet didn't roast as dark as Starbucks currently does, but by the standards of the day, way back then, he was roasting a dark coffee but not necessarily burnt coffee. John On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Joel Gomberg wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
I call a Full City roast one just before any oil specks show up (usually caught just as the first few cracks of second start in a drum and before second in an air roaster). A few oil specks is Full City Plus, and anything more is irrelevant in my opinion. John, I think you are right about 'subjective' dark roasts. A Full City by my description above would have been way different than most were used to at that time in history. ********************* Ed Needham "to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com********************* |
<Snip>
That's an issue among shop roasters and commercial roasters. I
remember being in a store with Equal Exchange coffee, a bin label
reading "Full City Roast" and glossy black oily coffee in side with a
nice thick coating of oil on the lucite itself ... Anyway, we try to
set a standard but it is hard to do so in either temperatures or
colors, since those vary by roast system and by coffee type,
varietal, etc. While it seems a bit sloppy, I think talking about it
relative to the audible cracks makes sense, but in a way its best to
combine all the factors to try to fill in the gaps - no one factor
can really designate degree of roast in and of itself. I have been
working on printed cards for a long time, but had too much trouble
getting finished prints that are a decent color match.
--
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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Makes an interesting discussion, Ed. I actually got in trouble a month ago for repeating exactly the same information as Don did, namely that the current standard of Starbucks dark-roasting originated with Alfred Peet. I don't think that I was suggesting that Alfred Peet was a light-roast advocate. It could be that he was still roasting darker than the standard for the country as a whole in the 70s, which was, in fact, a lot lighter than is commonly found these days (homeroasters excepted). But I did read here that Alfred Peet was later quoted as saying that the Starbucks-standard levels of roasting that were brought back into the Starbucks-operated Peet's were darker than he thought wise, that he lamented them. That, essentially, his earlier roasts, while not light, were not as dark as those of his successors. I'm not a coffee authority. I never knew or even met Alfred Peet. I don't know Don Schoenholt. I wasn't in Berkeley in the mid-70s. I wasn't in Seattle during the 70s or 80s. I do know that a Sulawesi and other Southeast Asian origins respond well to darker roasting in ways that many other origins don't. Doug On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Ed Needham wrote: <Snip> Don <Snip> ull <Snip> re <Snip> im <Snip> lots <Snip> html <Snip> of <Snip> se <Snip> IR <Snip> mariascoffee.com <Snip> mariascoffee.com <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
There seems to be lots of semantic confusion even among the elite roasters.I noticed this as soon as I got into roasting. It is kinda like a debate about when a tomato is ripe. Sweet Maria's paradigm is best for homeroasters simply because SM is the de facto standard in the home roasting world. Most of us on this list are not professional roasters. As for temperatures, we all know how hard it is to get precise measurements of the actual bean temperature. I take relative measurements of my machines and use them as guidelines. I have found that cracks are my best main guide. Since I rarely roast beyond the beginning stages of 2nd crack, I just wait for 1st crack and then use time, smell, color, and relative temp. from there. Do I get rigorously consistent roasts? No. As a homeroaster I relish and enjoy the slight variations in roasts. I don't have to have precise consistency between roasts because I don't have customers who want extreme consistency. Consistency can get boring in things that are supposed to be fun. Ditto for my espresso shots. Ivan ----------------------------- "The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
Right on, Ivan. I agree the Sweet Maria's chart is by far the best one out there. It's confusing at times, though. Another marker I use is when the beans yellow, which is right about 225-230 degrees. The time at which they yellow gives me an indication of how fast or slow my roast is progressing. John On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 5:36 PM, sci wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
Degree of roast is the never ending project. I wanted to take new
pictures for the chart, now that I have better gear, and some ideas
to correlate single bean macro images, groups of beans, and ground
coffee with the SCAA discs. I have an agtron too, an older unit, and
actually have never fired it up! (Found it used...) But that would be
great for reference. It's "Project 8342.6" on my list. But an
important one nonetheless.
Tom
<Snip>
--
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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Grammar, ugh... Tom, I didn't mean *your* list is confusing. It's the 'out there' part that's confusing; other forums, shops... One reason I like you list is more degrees of roast. Kind of like using grams to measure instead of ounces. John On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 11:19 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee < sweetmarias> wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
Glenn, Yes, life's too short to drink bad coffee... enjoy and good luck with the surgeries. And if you get a chance to post something about your coffee experiences in Kenya, I'd be interested in hearing them. -Chris On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 7:45 AM, glenn rogers wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
My feeling is that over roasting is a way to make a greater variety of = coffees taste about the same. In other words, you can sell a lot of = cheaper coffees for more if you get people to accept over roasting as = good. Since the great majority of their customers will not try = lighter roasts, Starbucks can hold a large market share in the United = States without providing their customers the best taste experience = from the coffees they sell. As Sweet Maria's clearly demonstrates, = the best coffees available are constantly changing and getting the = best out of coffee is an ever changing experience. And while a few = coffees do provide unique and interesting tastes at a darker roast, = roasting all your coffees past second crack is throwing away most of = the great flavors. pecan jim p.s. I see the Schultz book as more of a marketing tool than a good = source of coffee knowledge. On Feb 20, 2010, at 6:17 PM, Eliza Etzion wrote: <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> html <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> mariascoffee.com <Snip> mariascoffee.com <Snip> mariascoffee.com <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
On Feb 22, 2010, at 1:13 PM, Jim Gundlach wrote: <Snip> That is assuming that the coffees they sell are any good at lighter roasts. Roasting dark allows them to sell coffees that would otherwise be unpalatable at lighter roasts; hence maybe they DO provide the best taste experience from the coffees they sell, but not the best taste experience possible. Or more likely, the best *consistent* taste experience from the coffees they sell. - allon Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
You're right that the Schultz book was a marketing tool. Perhaps the Italian influence isn't the real reason Starbucks roasts so dark, especially when it can help them get away with providing less than incredible coffee. On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Jim Gundlach wrote: <Snip> per <Snip> cks <Snip> e. <Snip> ce <Snip> at <Snip> ey <Snip> so <Snip> m. <Snip> he <Snip> nd <Snip> ar <Snip> as <Snip> s. <Snip> ld <Snip> th <Snip> .html <Snip> y? <Snip> he <Snip> way <Snip> er <Snip> can <Snip> tmariascoffee.com <Snip> tmariascoffee.com <Snip> tmariascoffee.com <Snip> mariascoffee.com <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
I still think that offering roasted examples of a couple origins in city to full city plus roasts, as a series, might help establish the standards for these roasts. Bruce Garley New Port Richey, FL and Stillwater, MN (no longer San Juan Capistrano, CA) |
Do you mean a "reference set" of roasted beans? While it sounds like a good idea, a bean can look quite different right out of the roaster versus having sat days, weeks or months after roasting. And what a bean "looks like" with a 5 minute roast versus 15 minute may look very much the same color, yet would be entirely different. Looks is but one clue to a roast. And really for List purposes I believe Tom has done an excellent job with his Roast Pictorial providing a very good set of reference points when discussing roasts. Or go the route (that has been done twice I know of over the years just on this List and then they're never used by people discussing roasts anyway) of making a faux Agron tile set via paint sample cards... Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before. Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/ <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
Doug, I don't think Starbucks learned their lessons very well from Alfred Peet. :) ********************* Ed Needham "to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com********************* |
Personally, I find espresso to require well roasted coffee to make quality espresso. Roasted too dark and you lose the nutty, chocolaty sweetness I love in brewed coffee or espresso. There may be room for a small amount of dark roast in an espresso blend, to add a bit of bite or a dry finish. ********************* Ed Needham "to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com********************* |
Yes, a reference set. You make good points. Also, different origins are going to look totally different at similar roast levels, for example a DP Ethiopian vs WP Kenyan. Still I think it would be useful if only to underscore reference points. I thought it was useful when I started roasting for the Lady Silvia. I ordered roasted and green samples of SM espresso blends, to see what they should finish like. Then adjusted the roasting to match. Bruce Garley |
Welcome to the list, Eliza; I think we had a bit of a discussion about Schultz's involvement a couple months back, you can check the archives if you're interested.... (I'll just point out that Schultz was not a founder of SBs, he was first an employee of a company that sold a lot of plastic coffee filter cones to SBs, then fell in love with Seattle coffee culture on a visit and spent a year convincing SBs to hire him... Then he fell in love with italian espresso culture on a visit and decided he had to bring it to America, but couldn't convince SBs to move from roasting to serving coffee, so he left SB's and started his own chain of successful espresso bars (Il Journale or something like that) in Seattle.... Eventually he came back and bought SBs from the 2 remaining founders, one of whom split off and kept Peet's, which SBs had recently acquired). I think one of the strong mandates of SBs is to provide its customers with a CONSISTENT experience ---it seemed very important to Schultz that a customer could walk into any SBs anywhere in the world and feel instantly at home in a familiar setting, and to that end having the coffee taste the same everywhere was a crucial aspect. On that kind of scale, that guarantees consistent mediocrity ---there just isn't that much great coffee in the world. I think the folks talking about dark roasting being an 'equalizer' of coffee flavors may be on to something. I would also posit that once coffees get a little stale, they also lose a lot of their individual character. As for dark roasts, I agree with the consensus that there are few varietals that shine in a dark versus light roast, and many that suffer when overroasted. In addition, I find that once the oils are forced to the surface of the bean as they are in darker roasts, they go rancid quite quickly, which detracts significantly from the flavor of the resultant brew. So dark roasts, when drinkable, are much better drunk promptly! I think that the combination of overroasting and rancidity commonly drives people to add sugar to their coffee to offset the bitterness. Many people also seem to associate the "stronger" flavors of dark roasts with "stronger" coffee, which is ironic as the darker the roast, the less caffeine. I always tell people that if they like strong coffee they should use more grounds and less water, not burn the coffee! Most people seem to prefer familiarity to novelty, even when the familiarity is crap and the novelty potentially enriching. Look at our political system if you want an example.... ...Starfinder Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
Seems like the Kenyans that I roast, whether I stop at first sounds of 1st crack, rolling 1st, or untill all 1st crack snaps subside but before 2nd starts all come out looking the same degree of darkness it's the chaff still stuck in the middle rift or not and how flat that whole surface is....The 1st iRoast2 I had could make ANYTHING look cinder coal black if I even let it give out one pop I The replacement iRoast is a great roaster. have been wondering if the Poofts I have heard in my Behmor were some kind of crack they come about 1-2 minutes before what is actually 1st crack and there are only 1 or 2 of them what I am pretty certain is first crack actually sounds like popcorn popping. After that subsides if I wait usually somewhere from 30seconds to a minute depending on profile I can hear a crinkling sound which I have been calling second..... Jim On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 5:02 PM, John A C Despres wr= ote: <Snip> ots <Snip> tml <Snip> + <Snip> ow <Snip> for <Snip> know <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> -- = "Idiots are so much fun! Thats why every village either has one or wants one!" G. House MD. Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
Jim, I notice same poofts or whooshing noises before first crack in my Behmor... it's pretty quiet so you probably can't hear it in a loud roaster. Your right about the sounds of first and second, popcorn and crinkling, but I've had some beans second crack sound louder then first and some beans first crack be pretty quiet (but not whooshing or poofting). -Chris On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Jim Couch wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Starfinder Stanley wro= te: ... <Snip> g, <Snip> Consistency is of utmost importance for any successful chain. I think this helps explain *$'s success, as they've been very effective at maintaining consistency, not just in the roast, but in the brewing process and ambiance as well. I used to despise *$, but I don't anymore. I save my contempt for the many single-location mom&pop shops who can't even figure out how to brew a decent cup, regardless of the level of roast. Also for small local roasters who try to match or even exceed *$ / Peet's uber-dark style, instead of realizing that their smaller scale allows them to differentiate themselves by roasting each bean according to its properties. On the other hand, before I started home-roasting, I had developed the misconception that an oily surface was a natural quality of really good beans. Even then I was probably way more knowledgeable than the average consumer; it must be hard to try to please such an ignorant customer base. :-) <Snip> olks <Snip> on <Snip> they <Snip> ls <Snip> SM's French Roast blend definitely falls into that category. Come to think of it, I used to buy from a micro-roaster who had a decaf blend that stood up to very dark roasting. The beans were like oily black beetles, and I think this was the reason for my misconception about oily beans. -Dave Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
Those poofs you hear just before 1st crack is a piece of chaff flashing = off. If you turn the light off you can see them burn. Jim Couch wrote: <Snip> ill <Snip> re <Snip> ds <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> wrote: <Snip> <Snip> lots <Snip> html <Snip> y + <Snip> How <Snip> y for <Snip> of <Snip> se <Snip> IR <Snip> know <Snip> mariascoffee.com <Snip> <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
Oopsey fergot one tiny piece of info...what I was starting to say....was that Kenyans seem to end up somewhere tween 11-13 on toms pictorial..... in other words all my Kenyans turn out, colorwise about the same color. So a city is nearly same color as FC+ Jim On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Rich wrote: <Snip> st <Snip> et <Snip> en <Snip> om <Snip> .html <Snip> ty <Snip> my <Snip> ay <Snip> st <Snip> tmariascoffee.com <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> -- = "Idiots are so much fun! Thats why every village either has one or wants one!" G. House MD. Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
So glad to find out I wasn't making those sounds up.....after getting used to hearing cracks in iRoast2 a Behmor makes no noise..... Jim On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Rich wrote: <Snip> st <Snip> et <Snip> en <Snip> om <Snip> .html <Snip> ty <Snip> my <Snip> ay <Snip> st <Snip> tmariascoffee.com <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> -- = "Idiots are so much fun! Thats why every village either has one or wants one!" G. House MD. Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
Eliza, When I started roasting 6-7 years ago I was a dark roast kind of guy. I do all my brewing for espresso, 90% of the time with non-fat milk (about 4 oz for a triple-shot from 24oz of beans) with a bit of Turbinado sugar / no sugar if straight. Sometime after being inside this list I decided to try lighter roasts as an experiment. Since then I've been steering clear of 2nd crack, basically waiting until 1st is done, which I've been classifying as City Plus; if I hear a second crack snap I classify it as Full City Minus. I cannot endure dark roasts anymore, as I've become enamored of the origin flavors that abound in the lighter roast. Happy roasting, DJ |
On Feb 23, 2010, at 7:11 PM, Dhananjaya wrote:
<Snip>
Well said DJ. Well I guess I should say well written DJ. Your
experience is so similar to mine and I wish I could have said it so
well.
pecan jim
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