I mentioned it but seems to have been missed. To clarify the Agtron system
is used to measure/name/specify the roast level, as determined by the
"ground" coffee. Not the whole bean unground. Also the system is profile
independent, couldn't care less about how it got roasted. Except for
uniformity in the color of the grounds.
The Agtron Spectrophotometer system is not a tool for developing or
evaluating profiles, simply final roast level. However, Agtron has expanded
to offering Coffee Roasting Control Systems. Based on Carl Staub's
groundbreaking "Kinetic Roasting Method," Agtron Inc. developed two
electronic roasting wizards that can be fit to existing roasting equipment.
Oh, they also have a spectrophotometer specifically designed to address the
special requirements associated with evaluating color changes relative to
the frying process of French Fried Potatoes. (I suspect developed at the
request of MickyD's?) And another one evaluating color changes during tomato
maturation. And yet another used extensively in a large variety of food
products like; flours, spices, grains, nuts, cereals, sugars, snack foods,
baked goods, etc. They are also used for pharmaceuticals, plastics,
chemicals, paper and other industries.
Back to coffee. As far as any "Industry Standard" naming conventions with
any sort of associated detailed roast parameters there are none as far as I
know. Some loosely most of the time agreed upon terminology is about it.
Hence you'll see meaningless (marketing) roast terms like "Bold Roast",
"Deep Roast", "Premium Roast" or yeah "Espresso Roast".
Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
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miKe,
Thank you for clearing ahhh, me up on this subject. I'm sure if others are
listing they will benefit as well. It is very easy to confuse the use of
highly technical equipment when it comes to color values and coffee.
JoeR
On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 2:22 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
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Ah, that clarifies it for me. Thank you.
-- 
Ryan M. Ward
*Note: This email was sent from a computer running Ubuntu Linux 9.10 (Karmic Koala)http://www.ubuntu.com**Note: This signature was placed here by me and is not automatically-generated-annoying-end-of-email-spam placed here by anyone other than myself. I am a Linux nut and am doing my part to support open source software and the Linux and Ubuntu communities by getting the word out with each email I send, I encourage you to do the same.
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I just still can't believe there is not a simple optical scanner 
system that could be used on coffee. For graphic designers there is a 
vast array of cheap devices to analyze color. I am sure surface 
texture and reflectance is an issue. But how hard can it be? I think 
there should be a $150 scanner that would work on coffee.
-- 
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
               Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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Ocean optics manufactures low cost photo-spectrometers, I wonder if they have something that would be of use. 
Hmmmm.... I wonder if I could sneak some coffee beans into the Solid state physics lab and run them through the mass spectrometer....
Evil thoughts of science!! 
Did I mention that I religiously watched Bill Nye the Science Guy and Beakman's World as a kid?
-- 
Ryan M. Ward
*Note: This email was sent from a computer running Ubuntu Linux 9.10 (Karmic Koala)http://www.ubuntu.com**Note: This signature was placed here by me and is not automatically-generated-annoying-end-of-email-spam placed here by anyone other than myself. I am a Linux nut and am doing my part to support open source software and the Linux and Ubuntu communities by getting the word out with each email I send, I encourage you to do the same.
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I hate it when I use the wrong word, "listing" verses "listening". Spell
check won't tell me how dumb I am. Darn.
JoeR
On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Joseph Robertson wrote:
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Tom,
Since you asked I contacted Mane' Alves my roasting instructor and posed
your question to him. He uses the Agtron on a daily basis and is very
familiar with this science and I think knows you. You may have met on coffee
farm travels.
Here is his response to our discussion of the Agtron and it's possible
alternatives. He said I could share his comment with our list.
  "Coffee, the roasted kind is very difficult to measure color wise.
The reason, like Tom mentioned at one point, the roughness of the ground and
the reflectance/refraction of the bean itself defeats most of the methods
one could use visually (painters use Pantone color chips, it doesn’t work
here).
Agtron it was originally built to measure ground coffee, but it does a very
good job in measuring whole bean as well. These measurements will not
determine roast profiles, but there are patterns that emerge when you have
an Agtron and measure over time.
For instance if the inside and out of the same bean is more than 10 Agtron
points apart, most likely you have a problem with the roast (too roasted on
the outside and un-roasted on the inside); the same goes for too small of
differences from the outside in. When these numbers are close (the same in
and out or 1 or 2 points difference) in general the coffee is flat on the
cup.
So although the Agtron does not define profiles it will indicate the
tendencies in some roasts.
Are there alternatives in the market? Of course, Javalitics and Colortrack
just to name a few. These machines are less than half the price of the least
expensive Agtron and do a very good job in measuring color.
I tried to measure coffee with different systems originally designed to
measure color (BYK-Gardner and Konica-Minolta) and the results were less
good and repeatable. "
Hope this helps.
Best regards,
Mane' Alves
Coffee Lab International
(802) 244-6176
On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee <
sweetmarias> wrote:
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ariascoffee.com
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Oh, now I understand.
"Agtron system is used to
measure/
name/
specify the roast level, as determined by the
"ground" coffee.
Not the whole bean unground.
OK. So the roaster, with his monumental experience, would need to confirm
the roast by scavenging a few sample beans, grinding them, laying the
grounds under the correct light for comparison with the tiles, that have
completely different color pigments than the coffee grounds... Madison
Avenue strikes again!
[Aggies- take a lesson from TSA, who can use their X-ray vision to see
beneath the surface without removing any covers... ]
"Also the system is profile independent, couldn't care less about how it got
roasted.
Except for [the roaster, who Does care] uniformity in the color of the
grounds.
Uniformity- is that what you want? What happened to complexity and the
freedom to be different? Welcome to 1984- do svidaniya.
The Agtron Spectrophotometer system is not a tool for developing or
evaluating profiles, simply final roast level.
[After grinding and A-B comparing under the correct color temperature
source]
However, Agtron has expanded to offering Coffee Roasting Control Systems.
Based on Carl Staub's groundbreaking "Kinetic Roasting Method," Agtron Inc.
developed two
electronic roasting wizards that can be fit to existing roasting equipment.
Oh, they also have a spectrophotometer specifically designed to address the
special requirements [of] evaluating color changes relative to the frying
process of French Fried Potatoes. [First, grind up the fries!] - developed
at the request of MickyD's?
And another one evaluating color changes during tomato maturation.
And yet another used extensively in a large variety of food products like;
flours [finely-ground grains], spices, grains, nuts, cereals, sugars, snack
foods,
baked goods, etc. They are also used for pharmaceuticals, plastics,
chemicals, paper and other industries.
Yet again, new applications for Old Technology- When your doctor requests a
certain Winnie the Pooh sample for testing your digestive enzymes. Agtron
Scanners to the rescue with their Model S*. [Known by the delighted lab
techs as the Agtron S* Scanner (ASS) test.]
Since the tile pigments can't be identical to the pigments in the coffee
grounds, the comparison is only interpretive. and you could just as well use
an Edsel 410 engine, that also "is not a tool for developing or evaluating
profiles."
Viel Spaß -RayO, aka Opa!
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