OK folks, I have been pretty happy with my espresso until now.... I almost always drink it in steamed milk with some Hersey's syrup, and that tends to mask the basic espresso. But I have been paying more attention lately to the actual espresso taste, and I find that it is a lot more bitter than I like. I am currently using some Sulawese that I accidentally roasted a bit too far, but the bitterness is there in other beans I have tried. I'm using the Estro Vapore, and my usual brew method is to steam the milk first, then do the espresso. I try to leave the portafilter on the group for a while to heat it up, and I let the pressure build up for a few seconds before opening the portafilter. I'm grinding with a Gaggia burr grinder, and the grounds are pretty fine. I get decent crema... it's just bitter. Suggestions? Paul Goelz Rochester Hills, MI pgoelz at eaglequest dot com Videoastronomy, model helicopter and music (UnFest) web site:http://www.eaglequest.com/~pgoelz |
<Snip> Try Tom's Espresso Monkey, roasted just into second crack. If that tastes bitter to you, then you need to realize that espresso is an acquired taste, and you either need to learn to love that flavour or use another preparation method. Bitterness can be caused by overextraction (is your shot taking more than 25 seconds including preinfusion time?), but some is always present. --PR |
At 12:14 PM 10/30/00 -0500, you wrote: <Snip> I've got some Monkey Blend. Tried it and had the same bitter taste. This is considerably more bitter than what I have tasted at other commercial establishments. I'll go back and roast some more Monkey Blend and try it about 1/3 of the way through the extraction to see if I am over-extracting it. It takes about 15-20 seconds for a shot. One thing I am not sure of is the brew temperature. With the ready light on, I start the pump and about the time the shot starts exiting the portafilter, the ready light goes out. But then bitterness would be caused by too hot, not too cold?? Tonight I'll try a shot after leaving everything on for a half hour, with the portafilter on the group head, and see how it tastes. Paul Goelz Rochester Hills, MI pgoelz at eaglequest dot com Videoastronomy, model helicopter and music (UnFest) web site:http://www.eaglequest.com/~pgoelz |
You may be over-extracting the espresso. Try shorter pulls and see how that works. Mike Paul Goelz wrote: <Snip> |
<Snip> Not necessarily -- the thin stuff I get when the shot goes too quickly also tastes bitter to me. Think of espresso as extracting all the desired elements in balance. If you throw off that balance it won't taste as good. Do you pass hot water through the portafilter before packing it with grounds? You can use that water to heat the cup, just remember to dump it out before the shot is pulled! --PR |
At 01:41 PM 10/30/00 -0600, you wrote: <Snip> Yeah, that's what I thought too. But I tasted some of the first portion of the pull and it was just as bitter. I know it's me, just have to figure out why! Paul Goelz Rochester Hills, MI pgoelz at eaglequest dot com Videoastronomy, model helicopter and music (UnFest) web site:http://www.eaglequest.com/~pgoelz |
I don't know how similiar your machine is to Starbucks Barista. Below is a link to an almost finished article that walks through a brewing cycle.http://ineedcoffee.com/content/2000/11/barista.aspIt sounds like your not priming the pump. mas |
At 01:19 PM 10/30/00 -0800, you wrote: <Snip> That could be. I'll try "priming" tonight and see what happens. My machine appears to be essentially identical to the SB Barista.... and was sold by Starbucks back three or four years ago. Remember, my machine has the pressurized portafilter..... I'm wondering if the same rules for tamping and shot timing apply. Paul Goelz Rochester Hills, MI pgoelz at eaglequest dot com Videoastronomy, model helicopter and music (UnFest) web site:http://www.eaglequest.com/~pgoelz |
For safety sake, be very careful when you pull the porta off after running a clear shot to be sure you don't get sprayed with hot water/steam. Scalded hands don't hold the espresso cup very well... :) Espresso has to be one of the most complex ways of preparing coffee. You just have so many variables. Amount of coffee, grind level of coffee, pressure of tamp, pre-heating the porta, priming the pump, duration of draw, pre-heated cups, etc - sheesh, going through a pre-flight checklist is easier. With that in mind, be prepared to pull a lot of mud before getting those perfect shots. Always test the espresso black with nothing added. When you get it tasting perfect black, then rest assured that the additives like foam/milk/chocolate will be for enhancement. Many places try to use the foam/milk/chocolate/syrups to hide a bad espresso and it generally tastes that way. Paul Goelz wrote: <Snip> |
Paul, sorry if someone has posted this, when was the last time that you ran a espresso machine descaler through the machine? Milk based espresso drinks can hide the fact a machine needs to be descaled. I talked with Saeco (the maker of the Rio Vapore/Barista) awhile back and you could still order the regular portafilter for a few dollars. Saeco designed the portafilter that orginally comes with the Vapore to compensate for a wide variety of tamping pressures. The tech that I spoke with said that only a light tamp was required. Its a great machine, but quite hard to pull those 25-30 second pours that everyone talks about. Robert Kirkland rkirkland |
Paul Goelz wrote: <Snip> .................... Here is my experience, I roasted (Sumatra Blue Lintong Grade 1, Sulawesi Toraja Rantapao (Monsooned) quite long time ago, for around 10 minutes just hit 2nd crack. I drink espresso streightly from both roasting without milk but the brewing temperature is as low as 91C (196F). It was a balance of acidity & bitterness. Not strong to either side. I find if the temperature is higher, more bitter. Yes, my Rancilio is heavily modified for the brewing water temperature. Hope this help. Mike Liu - Taiwan |
Paul, Try making an "Americano" with your shot. Add twice the espresso volume of hot water to the shot. This will dilute the coffee back down to the "normal" brewed coffee strength. If it's then not too bitter, the "problem" with the espresso is just that it is more concentrated, and thus more bitter per swallow. =Spencer |
At 08:53 PM 10/30/00 -0600, you wrote: <Snip> It's been a very long time. What is the current recommended descaler? <Snip> I don't tamp at all. I didn't think you needed to with the valved portafilter. I do have a tamper, though.... BTW, I tried preheating and priming and it helped.... but still a bit bitter. Paul Goelz Rochester Hills, MI pgoelz at eaglequest dot com Videoastronomy, model helicopter and music (UnFest) web site:http://www.eaglequest.com/~pgoelz |
We just made some espresso coffee that came out bitter. What could cause this? We thought it might be either we had ground the beans too fine or should have brewed on minimum rather than maximum. The coffee was a whole bean Aged Mocha Java roasted on 11/1/01 and had been stored in the freezer in its plastic lined bag. Any ideas? B&S Beans homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
No matter what method you try you will never get the same flavor as fresh, especially anything stored that long. Glass jars with vacuum seal are better than plastic but anything frozen is going to have a different flavor. steve |
Yea, several of of them. Too loose a pack, too coarse a grind. Too low a water temperature. Too long a pour, using a single portafiller basket rather than a double. Too little coffee in the basket. Having an espresso machine that won't hold temperature or does not have sufficient pressure or hasn't been pre heated properly. Any one of these things or all of them can cause bitter espresso. Espresso will be bitter unless the shot is a very good one. It can take months to learn how to do consistant shots even with a very good machine. Isabel homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Amen Isabel! Even if the equipment is perfect and the grind is correct many of us (I'm their leader) still produce a shot now and then that will cross your eyes. It happens most often to me when the dose is wrong. I spit it out, go brush my teeth and then really pay attention. John - now going to go pull a shot On Fri, 08 February 2002, Isabel1130 wrote: <Snip> homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
On 8 Feb 2002 at 11:03, Dog Lovers wrote: <Snip> Hunting the bitterness: It's either the coffee, the machine, or your technique: Coffee: try it brewed by some other method Machine: the culprit here is mostly stale coffee oils - try pulling a "shot" with everything in place except coffee. If there's any strange or foul taste, clean and descale your machine and portafilter. Technique: If you're using a manual machine: Is there crema? Is it a 25 to 30 second 1 oz (single) or 2 oz (double) shot? If not, something's out of whack. If yes, but it's still bitter; try a "ristretto" pull. That's about 2/3 the volume with a slightly finer grind so it comes in at 30 to 35 seconds. Ristretto shots are generally sweeter and less bitter than regular shots. If you're using a super-auto: you're on your own. Happy hunting, Jim Schulman -- all shots now guaranteed 100% HTML free homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
I remember a funny quote I read once about coffee; when asked if freezing coffee was a good idea to preserve freshness, the response was (something to the effect of): "By freezing coffee, all you end up with is stale coffee that is very cold." :) jim |
<Snip> I think *months* is little exaggeration. The tough part is figuring out that you need a good grinder and finding the correct information in order to get a decent shot, assuming that you have a good machine. It took me about a week of work, once I got my grinder, to get decently consistent. But even with my Pavoni and being careful, there is the odd shot that goes down the drain. For my wife, who drinks cappucino only, every shot is wonderful! David Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device:http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://mobile.msn.comhomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
The reason that I say months is that for me the learning curve on making espresso has not been a stright line. I thought I was getting pretty good shots after a few weeks of owning my espresso machine. My Mazzer Mini came and things got better. Then I got into home roasting and the coffee got better yet. I started experiementing with different beans and roasts and the coffee go mostly better. After that I started learning the quirks of my machine and how to correct for them so that I got fewer bad shots. At some point after that I learned that 6 day old roasts require a finer grind than two day old roasts. I had a period when I had trouble getting a good shot with a new bean and had to make a few more adjustments. It has been two years now of never ending tweaking and adjusting. An art more than a science. :-) Isabel homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
I have to stand with Isabel on this one. I've been "refining" my process for years. And, like Isabel, every change in the system from bean to roast and grind puts me back a couple of squares. The recovery tweak is much faster now because I realize the problem faster and generally one or two tweaks and I'm fine again. I'm sure that when my wife breaks down and lets me get the piston machine I really want, that it will take a couple of weeks to settle into it too. It would be a bit arrogant of me to claim that I now could guarantee a perfect shot every time. John - wondering how you can leave beans for six days :O) |
In a message dated 02/09/2002 8:58:53 AM Mountain Standard Time, john writes: << John - wondering how you can leave beans for six days :O) >> John to answer that, you roast your coffee on Wednesday. On Thursday you take your kid to a tennis tournament in Vegas or Denver for four days. Monday you drive home and Tuesday morning a six day old roast looks pretty good considering what you had to drink on the road.....:-) homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
I will be out of the office starting 11/26/2002 and will not return until 12/02/2002. I will respond to your message when I return. homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Paul, IM-CSA-O it can and does make a big bad drink. But I'd be more concerned about the cold than the hot - not that far out of range - but the cold is. John |
OK, I did some tests on my Estro Vapore. As soon as the ready light comes on, the water temperature as it exits the shower head is 99 degrees C (210F). As the shot progresses, the temperature falls to about 80 degrees C (176F) after maybe 15 seconds. Hmmmm..... I tried the temperature surfing technique and I think I got a slightly less bitter shot but still nothing like Starbucks. Any chance that bitterness can be caused by water that it too hot AND too cold? Paul Paul Goelz Rochester Hills, MI paul pgoelzhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://www.pgoelz.comhomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
I agree with John, it sounds like it is cold at the end of the pour. Is this a double shot? If so, try a single shot. It will use less water and maybe not get so cold at the end. See if the taste improves. If it does you have found your culprit. Dan <Snip> less <Snip> homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
At 09:32 PM 3/4/03, you wrote: <Snip> Thanks guys. I'll keep at it and report back. Paul Paul Goelz Rochester Hills, MI paul pgoelzhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://www.pgoelz.comhomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
At 9:14 PM -0500 3/4/03, Paul Goelz wrote: <Snip> As a general rule, too high a temperature will produce a bitter shot, too low a sour one. It's also true that some blends are more finicky about this than others. Tom's Classic Italian Espresso Blend is fairly tolerant, as I recall; you might try some of that. 99° C is going to extract some bitterness, but it depends on how much of that hits the puck. If it's down to 95° by the time it's raised the puck temperature, you'll still be OK. Best, David -- Less than 0.1 percent of the U.S. population gave 83 percent of all itemized campaign contributions for the 2002 elections, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
I hope you figure it out, Paul. I'm still shocked that you know of a Starbucks with good espresso. There aren't any SB's around here, but when traveling I've checked out a number of them, and it's nasty bitter espresso every time. Some worse than others, but all very bitter. Charlie --- Paul Goelz wrote: <Snip> ===== Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, morehttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://taxes.yahoo.com/homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
At 12:33 AM 3/5/03, you wrote: <Snip> And I have had pretty bad espresso from some at places like airports. But dang it, the two I patronize around the Rochester Hills MI area have pungent non-bitter espresso..... reliably. Makes me mad! Oh, and they also have hands down the best molasses cookies in the world. Paul Paul Goelz Rochester Hills, MI paul pgoelzhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://www.pgoelz.comhomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
<Snip> The only good espresso I've ever had at a Starbucks was in the Vancouver airport kiosk, international departures, in March 1998. It was served to me by one of two women baristas (they looked Hispanic to me) working really hard, because there was quite a lineup. I stood and watched them for a while: not a wasted motion, and the occasional shot dumped when a timer ran out and they hadn't gotten to it. It underlined to me how much difference individual effort can make, even with commercial machines and a standardized roast. --PR homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
In a message dated 3/4/03 7:34:38 PM Mountain Standard Time, danbollinger writes: <Snip> I kind of agree with both of them. It is not necessarily the temp of the water at the end of the pour, it is the volume of water that has gone through the coffee ( and at what temp) I would not recommend trying a single shot. It is so hard to get consistant results with that small amount of coffee. What I woulld recomment is that with the double portafiler you not try and get more than an ounce and a half or espresso and the pour should be slow enough that getting that amount should take 30 to 45 seconds. I would also recommend that you try a technique that works with the Silvia. Make sure that your drop in temp at the the group head is not being caused by you starting with a partially filled boiler at the beginning of the shot. A good way to prevent that is to run water through the machine without the portifiller until the the temp light comes on. Then, wait for the temp light to go off before immediately pulling the shot. (I can recognize by the sounds of the Silvia when I am starting with a partially filled boiler) Watch for the shot going light in color towards the end of the pour. The light colored coffee will generally be very bitter. Hope these tips help a little. Isabel <Snip> |
I am working to pull better shots... My espresso's are bitter - not
as bitter as the local coffee shop, but bitter still. Am I doomed to
never love espresso, or are there some things I ought to be
considering and steps to try to improve this sad situation?
Regards,
Brett Mason
HomeRoast
__]_
_(( )_ Please don't spill the coffee! |
At 7:13 PM -0800 3/01/05, Brett Mason wrote: <Snip> I would suggesting finding somewhere that pulls a great shot -- according to someone that is an afficionado -- and having a shot there. That way, you can find out if it is a matter of what you like (some people just don't like the taste of espresso -- I know some people that love coffee but don't love espresso) or a matter of your shot-pulling technique or of the coffee that you are using. Just my .02, Edward |
No, you are not doomed. Gives us more - machine, grinder, coffee, roast level, shot appearance... Sometime around 19:13 3/1/2005, Brett Mason typed: <Snip> -- John Nanci AlChemist at large Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/ |
John is right. The first time he came to my house it was courage that brought him to try espresso, now he pulls nice sweet shots with the best of them. We are here to help Brett. Alchemist was pulling some very sweet shots out of his Delonghi! So, any machine can do a great shot as long as you know its limitations and is working right. That is my opinion. Les On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 06:19:48 -0800, AlChemist John wrote: <Snip> |
Starbucks Barista
Zassenhaus Knee Mill, .25 turn open
Guatemala Antigua, City+ roast
Pulled a single, 25 second shot
some crema....
Thx,
Brett
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:35:15 -0800, Les wrote:
<Snip>
--
Regards,
Brett Mason
HomeRoast
__]_
_(( )_ Please don't spill the coffee! |
Yow. Make sure it's bitter and not sour that you're tasting. That's a very light roast for a single origin Guatemala for espresso. JeffO Brett Mason wrote: <Snip> <Snip> |
Thanks Jeff & Mike, I will do so... Brett "Loved by some on the Homeroast List" On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:21:28 -0800, miKe mcKoffee wrote: <Snip> |
I ditto Mike and Jeff, but stay away from the Amber blend and go with one of the others. The Amber has a learning curve to it too. Personally, I have found the Monkey blend to be a very forgiving blend. I would also recommend a slightly coarser grind and heavier tamp. Make sure you let it rest 2-3 days too. Les On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:25:38 -0800, Brett Mason wrote: <Snip> |
At 9:05 AM -0800 3/02/05, Brett Mason wrote: <Snip> What was the volume of the shot? |
Sometime around 09:05 3/2/2005, Brett Mason typed: <Snip> OK, these should/can work <Snip> Looks like I may have to bow out - I can't abide Guatemalans, so do not know the flavor - that could be it. Just a single origin flavor profile. Maybe look at getting Tom's Monkey blend as a "known" and dial in from there. <Snip> Again, sounds ok. <Snip> -- John Nanci AlChemist at large Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/ |
Consensus indicates start at the coffee - so I will. Thank you all
for your help!
I will try some other beans then... Gotta check the account, then
I'll be vdriving my Dell to Tom's to vpickup some Monkey Blend...
Regards,
Brett
Loved by some on the list!
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 06:05:54 -0800, AlChemist John wrote:
<Snip>
--
Regards,
Brett Mason
HomeRoast
__]_
_(( )_ Please don't spill the coffee! |
For almost a year now, since getting my RK Drum, I have been selling small quantities of homeroasted coffee to neighbors, friends and acquaintances. I could probably do some marketing and make some real $$$ with this, but then I would have to deal with business license issues, health inspections, insurance coverage, and legal issues, all of which I am ignoring now with my 15 - 20 pounds a month of coffee sales. I choose to keep my operation small and am happy with my current sales at $9 a pound but I'm always happy to gain a new "customer" and share some of this coffee adventure that all of us on this list seem to enjoy. Now I have a bit of a dilemma. They say that word of mouth is the best advertising --- but what do you do when someone asks for something lousy? I just got an e-mail from a neighbor asking for two pounds of my "special blend" and telling me that he has a friend that wants "a strong dark roast espresso that has a bitter taste to it". Jeez - I don't have a clue where to start. I rarely roast anything beyond FC (on purpose) but can certainly roast something to Vienna for him. But I was under the impression that the bitter taste in espresso came from improper temperature and/or extraction. Am I wrong? Any suggestions what might be bold enough to get his attention? (He's NOT getting any of my Harar Lot 30). JavaJerry RK Drum roasting in Chesapeake, VA |
He's probably confusing 'bitter' with strong. Make a good, qualith, well roasted espresso blend and he'll be a customer forever. ********************* Ed Needham® "to absurdity and beyond!" ed at homeroaster dot com (include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters) ********************* |
Your friend has been taught that he has to want "a strong dark roast espresso that has a bitter taste to it." He has learned that much- teach him that a proper espresso brew has no use for syrups, sugar and cream. Horror Roasters NEED all that stuff to blot ou= t their errors. I agree with Ed. Cheers -RayO, aka Opa! -- "When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Might= y Wichita WurliTzer- 1976 |
Just roast the beans. The bitter is up to him!! If he's a truly skilled barista then making it bitter should be no problem. ;) brad |
Java Jerry. What types of coffees do you sell? I may be interested. contact: _bigskullhead1 (mailto:bigskullhead1) Thanks. John B |
Hi Jerry, First, if he wants terrible coffee, do not buy any from SM :) I have a customer who likes supermarket gourmet blend coffee, and Tom's coffee is just too good to try to duplicate THAT. (Except for the UGH!) My advice: Just keep a stash in a separate area (you do not want to get the bad stuff near the SM stuff) that you will save for true hold outs that really love F**S etc. Most of that has lots of UGH in it anyway (robusta). Second, remember the customer is always right. Not their fault, but folks have been trained to purchase the cheapest canned stuff they can get, and enjoy it. (Ever see the 2# can go on sale for $1.79?) Take too big a jump toward something decent and they balk. If you want, try mixing in good coffee with that special blend over time, like say a year or more, and see if you can wean them from the bad. Good luck! PeterZ Jerry Procopio wrote: <Snip> |
Ask a few questions, invest a little time, and develop a new customer.
First, is the customer actually going to pull espresso shots (and what kind
and brand of machine)? Or is "dark roast espresso" simply a synonym for
very dark roast that will be plopped into Mr Coffee?
Second, how is the customer grinding? Do you routinely suggest appropriate
grinders for your premium coffee?
Regarding advice that you only provide crappy coffee to such a philistine,
nonsense. Unless this is all about maximizing profit, in which case,
geddoutahere. :o)
Once you know something about the customer's brewing and grinding, prepare =
a
few "taste packs." Assuming that the customer is local, you grind a coupl=
e
of ounces each of what you think is optimal and a few steps darker. Offer
these and place the customer in the position of being the expert.
My 2 cts.
--
Martin
Heat + Beans
all the rest is commentary
|
John, If it is on Sweet Maria's Green Coffee Offering page, I can get it (if I don't already have it) and roast it for you. Sweet Maria's also does a Roastmaster's Choice offering each week. See http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.roasted.htmlfor details. Java Jerry RK Drum roasting in Chesapeake, VA Bigskullhead1 wrote: <Snip> |
Maybe 10% of not-so-dark roasted Kenya. McSparky At 01:10 AM 5/23/2006 -0400, you wrote: <Snip> |
Jerry, I have a friend who explained his wants to me the same way - - 'Bitter'. I've been roasting for him about a year now, and I've come to the conclusion that what he meant was any taste that would cut through the milk. I've got him to the point of drinking less than vienna roasts finally, and he thanks me evey time I see him. Mike (just plain) |
Thanks to everyone that responded. Here's what I did. I made a one
half pound blend of:
50% Sweet Maria's French Roast Blend
20% Uganda Robusta Esco Farms 18+ Screen
30% Guatemala Antigua
I blended prior to roasting, then roasted a full minute into 2nd crack
with a resulting FC++. The beans are dark yet not oily.
I gave this to my neighbor (I've never met nor spoken to the guy that
wants the coffee) and told him if the guy likes it, then he owes me $5,
if he doesn't like it, there are three Starbucks within 2 miles of here.
Actually, I was sorry that I didn't keep any for myself. I started
out with 10 ounces of greens and ended up with 8.1 ounces roasted so it
all went into the bag. Ten minutes after cooling, the roasted beans
smelled really, really good.
Jerry
Jerry Procopio wrote:
<Snip> |
Jerry, I think you may have hit on the key for these folks and that is the 20% Robusta that you added to the blend. I have found that people who "like" store coffee or bitter coffee it is due to the fact they are drinking mostly Robusta that has an edge to it. Les On 5/24/06, Jerry Procopio wrote: <Snip> f <Snip> . <Snip> y <Snip> g <Snip> e <Snip> ribes) go tohttp://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip> |