<Snip> <Snip> I have not found a big deterioration in up to about 6 days with beans stored in a glass jar. If you're new to making espresso (and even if you're not), I'd guess that some other factor is behind big taste differences. I think the most likely candidates are grind and tamp, but see what Schomer has to say on factors in a perfect cup:http://www.lucidcafe.com/cafeforum/factors.htmlSteve Schurman Whirley-Pop Rocky Europiccola/Santos/Chambord |
I am new to the world of espresso. I have used the HWP for over 300 roasts
and it seems to be holding up. But it seems that there may be different
rules when it comes to degassing for espresso as compared to something like
a French press? Bean to bean is certain to hold variability as indicated
by Tom's notes on the various roasts. Having roasted SM's Moka Kadir to
about 2.5 minutes after first crack(s), the first espresso pulled some 20
hours later was quite astounding. Especially when comparing this against
the beans that had been used to calibrate the grinder - one of those
commercial espresso blends. I thought nothing of it and left the whole
beans in the grinder and there was a noticeable difference in the shot of
espresso perhaps 10 hours later. The next day I could get nothing close to
what had come out with the first try with Moka Kadir. That was first of
three batches. The second batch of Moka Kadir was tried out five days
after roasting. Again, the shots were not even close. Is there a bias
that one must take that consists of not letting the roasted beans sit
around too long, even in a sealed canning jar? I intend to try out the one
way valve Ziplock bags and perhaps Keith Parker's one way valve embedded
into a lid. Have others found a noticeable deterioration in the shots
after two days or more, assuming that the beans are not sitting out in the
open? It just seems that beans roasted for espresso can not be left
sitting in the grinder, waiting to be ground. If that is so, then those
with espresso machines are missing out on a lot, both bean wise whether or
not they use home roasted or commercially bought espresso roasted
blends. The commercial espresso stuff just seemed to be very flat when
compared against the Moka Kadir. I would have expected that, but would not
have expected the Moka Kadir to deteriorate after ten hours and overnight
while sitting in the grinder. If that turns out to be consistent through
out the beans, then that would require more frequent roasts rather than
doing it once a week for daily use? Thanks for any input.
Carl
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On 1 Dec 00 at 15:50, Fookoo Network wrote: <Snip> <Snip> I have two acrylic jars, both of them have capacity of 1 kg roasted coffee. It can hold the pressure to some extent but not much as I never hear popping when I open it. Oil is look like reluctant to show on the surface after several days of roasting. Roasted coffee is packed in small plastic bags after cooling, then in the jar finally in the storage cabinet. The storage cabinet is made of wood, no light is inside of this cabinet. I take the jar straight up-down, never tilting, nor upside down from cabinet to avoid any CO2 is escaped from the jar. When coffee is used, only the top plastic bag is taken out, re-pack those unused coffee in the the same plastic bag if any is left in the hopper on grinder after completion of my espresso. Does this help? yes! All the coffee can be used to a month without stale flavor detected. Using this method, I find the Moka Khadia will be the best 7 days after roasting (by modified popcorn popper). That is a slow degassing. Since then, the flavor does not change till coffee is finished, sometime one month later. Hope this help, YMMV, by the way. Mike Liu - Taiwan. |
Carl, Have you tried freshly roasted beans? Although I can only comment on "french press" type brewing, what I have found is that freshly roasted beans usually have some flavors that disappear after an overnight rest even in a closed jar. I nearly always make a brew within an hour or two of roasting. IMO the overall effect of aging is a loss of "complexity" and a gain in sweetness and chocolatey flavors. There may be a minimum degassing time to prevent excess crema. There may be another effect of leaving the beans in the grinder. The leftover grounds in the grinder will stale quickly. These should be removed by cleaning or purged by fresh grinding. -- Ken Mary - Aromaroast & Popper - whirlyblade - decanter ---------- <Snip> <Snip> |
Ken, You drink Indonesian or aged coffee within a hour or two of roasting? I've had Aged Sumatra that tastes almost foul in the first 8 hours develop into a perfect cup on day 2 or 3. The only coffee I'll drink that quickly after roasting is Central or South American. I have a whacked time-zone/degass rule. The closer the time-zone of the crop the faster it'll be ready for drinking. mas <Snip> "french <Snip> usually <Snip> the <Snip> removed <Snip> |
re:: espresso roasts and waiting, seems like Schomer felt you should wait days or even a week or so before testing the roast. I like espresso pulled from beans that are at least 4-4 days old post roast or else the 'crema' is really just foam. Ted |
Oops. 3- 4 <Snip> roast |
mas, Absolutely! But I roast light, stopping at about .25 to .5 of the time between end of first crack and beginning of the second. I sometimes run one roast to beginning of second crack to determine this interval, then just guess at the time past first crack for others. I have never been disappointed. The Sulawesis and Sumatras have a phenomenal complexity at this roast degree. The Central and South American coffees, however, often need a day or two af aging to more fully develop the flavors. Of course, we all have our own taste preferences. My roast times generally run between 5 and 8 minutes. Aging time may be roast dependent. -- Ken Mary - Aromaroast & Popper - whirlyblade - decanter ---------- <Snip> <Snip> |
As indicated I am new to the espresso "game." I am beginning to think that
the first shot of nirvana from Moka Kadir was a fluke. It may be that
aging or resting the beans is not all that big of a deal. Subsequently, I
bumbled into a second "perfect" shot with SM Donkey decaf blend. Of
course, this is all quite subjective so I should "define" what I think
"perfect" is at this point in time. There is a thickness and incredible
intensity to the shot. It is a WOW effect. So the score card is two
"perfect" shots in 15 oz of beans. It is clear that coffee at this level
is in another ball park. There is no way that French Press can come close
to this sort of experience. Now if only I can drastically reduce the bad
shots. It will be interesting to see just how steep this learning curve
turns out to be.
Carl
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Hugh, At this point, I am not all that concerned with the roast. It just seems to me that there is quite a bit to figure out via the grind, which may vary from to bean, and the tamping. Using a doser, I just eyeball what goes into the portafilter. Clearly, this is a work in progress and there is still a lot of work to do. The pursuit goes on. Carl At 06:44 PM 12/2/00 -0800, you wrote: <Snip> |
A simple solution to the degassing problem that I toyed with is to go to a local kitchen tools store (around here, Lechters) and buy the Vacu-Vin stoppers, which are used to take the air out of wine bottles. This is a one-way valve which fits into the neck of a wine bottle. All you need do is get an empty wine bottle or any bottle that has the same size opening, put in your beans and shove the stopper in. As an added bonus, most wine bottles are tinted to keep out the light. If, after the degassing period, you wish to withdraw oxygen, you can buy the hand pump for this stopper and pull most of the oxygen out... It's a cheap and EASY solution...:-) Ciao, Angelo btw, There are other brands that work as well... |
Well, Carl, that was what I alluding to - the difficulty of producing good espresso. I am lucky enough to live near Schomer's shop, and occasionally am fortunate to have the master pull a shot for me. I can buy the same espresso blend and take it home the same day and compare my efforts with those of the Master. Additionally, I use Schomer's ristretto blend (Espresso Dolce) as a standard by which to compare my own blends. Anyone who is serious about espresso should buy his book, "Espresso Coffee - Professional Techniques". I'm sure it's available on Tom's web site. This is certain to bring out all the anti-Schomer forces (if they're still around) on this list, but I don't care. Schomer taught me to make pretty damn good espresso. For that, I am grateful. Hugh |
I read his treatise on foaming milk (thanks to someone on this list for the URL). I then removed the "foam gadget" from my Krups Novo Compact, and have been making better foam than I ever did with the gadget attached. And for an added bonus, it's much easier to clean now. I haven't tried the Espresso techniques yet. Hugh Solaas wrote: <Snip> |
<Snip>
One other thing to consider is the degree of roast in terms of both
espresso extraction and degassing. The darker you roast, the more porous
you are making the coffee. The coffee will degas more during the roast
cycle and in the first few hours afterwards --- I do think dark roast need
time to develop after roasting but it seems to me that some other chemical
stabilization is occurring other than degassing. I can taste gassy CO2
flavors in super fresh lighter roasts but not in the darker ones. And yet
there is noticeably less body in a darker roast 4 hours after roasting vs.
24 or 48 hours later.
Lighter roasts will cause problems with espresso extraction if they are not
degassed, but darker roasts will tend to allow water to percolate through
the espresso cake easier because the coffee is more porous. On top of this,
dark roasts will not grind as easy as lighter roasts because they tend to
powderize in the burrs more ...the physical structure of the bean is so
fractured in a dark roasts. So there are lots of variables in play here.
Dark roasts will require different tamping, perhaps different grind, than
lighter roasts for espresso...
Just a few thoughts ...
Tom
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom, Maria and Jovan are currently working through a a heavy load of
christmas orders so shipments are delayed just 1-2 days!
"Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting - Tom & Maria
http://www.sweetmarias.com |
Thanks for all of the replies. Whether or not it is fortunate or not, it
is a fact that making outstanding espresso is no simple thing, even with a
high end espresso machine. The details or mechanics are crucial and when
something doesn't quite go right, then one must look very carefully at what
one has done. Espresso is a very unforgiving process that quickly exposes
any flaws committed. I have ordered the Schomer book and look forward to
reading it (I had read about it previously and at this point I can use all
the help that I can get). Ironic that watching someone pulling a shot
looks so easy, until I try to do it myself. Well, in less than two weeks I
have learned a lot and there is still even more to learn via the school of
carefully controlled trial and error. There is science here, but it is
feeling more and more like an art. That brings to mind one of the old
Julia Child shows from the 60's in which she said that it was not big deal
if you made a mistake while cooking because it could always be covered
up. Not so with espresso!! Unless you like to use lots of milk and
sugar. At least I have lots of Sweet Maria's espresso blends to experiment
with, and I look forward to it. :>))
Carl
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