| Yesterday when we were doing some playing with the Cimbali and the Gaggia Achille, the subtlety of the shot was revealed. I loaded and locked a nice double shot in the Achille, and forgot to do the preinfusion pull and pulled a very silky ristretto. It wasn't what I was after, but none the less, Alchemist John and I both really enjoyed this excellent elixir. So Alchemist John decided to pull one. He did his normal load and lock, but pulled an average double shot. He tried again, and proceeded to pull a much better double shot. I then turned down the grind by a notch and he pulled the same silky ristretto. The only difference in our shots was the way we leveled and prepared the basket for the tamp. We were using the Ridgeline, so the depth of the tamp was the same. I think we were both surprised that such a little difference could make such a huge difference in the cup. It just goes to show that being aware and keeping an open mind will often lead to greater understanding. Another part of our "play" was I brought a very nicely roasted Guatemala Yellow Bourbon. It is excellent as drip and vac pot. I thought it might be a little too lightly roasted for espresso. After some samples and going to a higher temperature that gave it bright by drinkable shot, Alchemist John and I both concluded that it is true that espresso isn't a roast, but a drink, however there are better roast levels for espresso. This was a light city roast and it is an awesome espresso at a full-city roast, but has a bright edge in the cup at the lighter roast level that makes it too bright. I hope our "play" gives you some food for thought. It is good to get together with another homeroaster - barista to sharpen your skills. Thanks for a fun few hours Alchemist John Les Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Les, Every time a read a post like this, I get re-enthused about coffee. Your equipment and coffee reviews are in a database that will be used when I make my voyage to the Dark Side. I can feel the call, tugging at my soul. Bob Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| <Snip> So Alchemist John decided to pull one. He did <Snip> If I understood correctly you pulled a silky ristretto at grind X. Alchemist used same grind X setting and pulled consecutive longer shots. Then you tightened the grind and he pulled a similar silky ristretto. "The only difference in our shots was the way we leveled and prepared the basket for the tamp... Using the Ridgeline, so the depth of the tamp was the same." First it seems the only diffence 'was' the difference, highly likely a difference in dosing. Did you weigh each build to verify build consistency. On the Linea 1g difference equals about 5sec pull difference for same exact amount of water by volume. (using volumetric for consistency of water volume applied) Same depth of tamp via Ridgeline is meaningless UNLESS the same tamp pressure was achieved at that same depth of temp, which would only happen if the dosage and grind the same. Change dose or change grind same dose and for given tamp pressure depth will change or for given depth of tamp the applied tamp pressure will change. I've said it before, it's the consistency of pressure applied not consistency of tamp depth that is important to learn. And it's learned by learning the feel of target tamp pressure not a predetermined tamp depth. You'll get to know if your dose is off and hence if the shot will be off by the feel of tamp at given depth of tamp. And if you hit the normal tamp depth and the pressue is light you can compensate a wee bit and cheat by tamping deeper and a bit harder than normal. (which you can't do with a Ridgeline) I know of a shop that won't let a person pull for customers until they can build a dozen consective PF's within +/- 0.2gr. I don't have haven't made the luxury of time available for that precise of training and allow =/- 0.5gr max variation. Actually the relationship between dose and shot time makes it possible to pull normales routinely and then pull a ristretto when called for without changing the grind. Simply dial in the bean/blend for 'normal' dose normale pull volume for the bulk of shots. When a ristretto is called for updose with the same grind and you'll have a ristretto in the same shot time. Accurate dosing may be the most important thing to learn in developing shot consistency. And I've got way more to learn about pulling shots than I have a clue about!!!!! Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before. Pacific Northwest Gathering VIIhttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/Homeroast mailing list">http://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVII.htmSweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| How does the Ridgeline tamper control the actual packing of the coffee grounds, without a very precise load of coffee grounds under it in the filter basket? A guy like me could be in trouble from the very start, I fear. Short load, Ridgeline stops at filter ridge, packing is loose, pressure is low, shot is SNAFU. Not the end of the world: just lose few more points. On two consecutive shots with the same bean and grind, could I match the grind quantity to within ± 0.01g? I doubt it. Had to measure smokeless gunpowder to within ±0.00025g, but the consequences were a somewhat more dire! When the consequences were more dire, like having a receiver explode in my face or a bolt come back through my upper jaw, I weighed smokeless gunpowder to within ±0.00025g.(0.1 Gr) Poor loads could be real bad, exactly like Death Warrants, not just for me only. Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa! Got Grinder? Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee=.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
| Oops- Glad I quit before anyone died. .01g = (apx) 0.1grain precision for gunpowder. Bang! -ro On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 1:57 AM, wrote: <Snip> der <Snip> -- = "When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976 Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee=.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 |
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| Wow, a gunpowder expresso! Wouldn't that be quite the shot!bill On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:15 AM, wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| The difference was definitely dose related. Les used a flat edged chopping method to distribute his dose and consequently dosed more than I normally do. I simply level swipe and go. I have found I prefer the flavor profile of a 14-15 g dose (per double) instead of a 16-18 g dose. As for adjusting the pull based on tamp pressure, I never found consistency there. Probably my current reason for liking the Ridgeline. For a given grind, I would much prefer to updose slightly for a tighter shot if for some reason I don't want to adjust the grind. Then again, I have no problem, and actually prefer to simply adjust the grind. At 09:21 PM 9/6/2008, you wrote: <Snip> John Nanci AlChemist at large Zen Roasting , Hand Grinding, Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.chocolatealchemy.com/Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| <Snip> <Snip> Agree 100% not necessarily the optimal or usual way of adjusting shot. My point was simply it can be done on the fly to possibly save a shot once knowing what the pressure should feel like and finding tamp light at given tamp depth rather than dumping the build or pulling a fast sour shot and then dumping it. <Snip> I still don't see how that improves tamp pressure consistency. Tamp level consistency yes if always tamping to Ridgeline hitting the basket lip. Unless you mean when it hits the basket and can go no further you know by the feel of the pressure if the dose was in fact correct. <Snip> Which makes the preferred ristretto in the cup really depends on the particular bean/blend etc. For home really doesn't matter which way to go as long as don't mind wasting grinds dialing in back and forth. The ristretto method via updosing rather than changing the grind works quickly, efficiently and with much less waste, especially important in a commercial envirnonment. At home with a stash way too big anyway wasted grinds can be a good thing! At home personal build consistency is important. One thing this really illustrates is how hard and important it is to train for PF build consistency in a commerical environment. In dosing weight, distribution and tamp pressure. You and Les pulled very different shots with the same grind because of how you each dosed. If different baristi dose differently and/or tamp differently the grind will be set right for one and not for another at any given time. Barista 'A' is pulling beautiful shots goes on break, Barista 'B' steps up and pulls crap same coffee same grind. Ideally all should pull the same shot with same grind at any given moment. Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before. Pacific Northwest Gathering VIIhttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/Homeroast mailing list">http://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVII.htmSweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Interesting discussion. I continue to learn. The whole point of the post, was to show that something as subtle as the way you level the basket before the tamp can make a huge difference in the shot, all other things being equal. Changing the grind to a slightly finer grind resulted in the same shot, thus when one thing changed another factor had to be changed to compensate so the end result was the same, a silky crema full awesome shot of Alchemist John's DP African blend. I have played with dosing, and I have dosed within + or - .1 grams on 10 consecutive doses. It is an exercise that will improve one's shots. Les On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 11:53 AM, miKe mcKoffee wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Or more precisely it's not "the way you level" but "the way (amount) you dose". With good distribution from the grinder to basket leveling isn't even necessary! But that's another discussion that few home baristi have grinders good enough to even apply to. I don't at home and 'can' with the Major IF very good at the thwacking and PF rotation during distribution. Les I suspect you could with the Hybrid. Oh, grind timer accurate to at least 0.1sec very helpful too for no level accurate dosing:-) Even then dose will vary slightly do to variations in bean density. And in a complex blend won't always have the exact same ratio of the different beans in each dose. And and and infinitum... Just like roasting: it's easy to turn beans brown, it's a lifetime Journey learning to make each bean sing. Same with 'spro: it's (relatively) easy to consistently pull good shots, it's a lifetime Journey learning the myriad intricate interrelated variables and resultant cups of Dark Side excellence. Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before. Pacific Northwest Gathering VIIhttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/Homeroast mailing list">http://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVII.htmSweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Right on Mike, That is what makes this hobby (obsession) so much fun! I can't imagine how whacked out the weight could be if you had a poorly mixed blend with Monsooned Malabar in it. However the way you level can affect the amount in the PF basket. I remember working with a Doctor south of town and he wanted to learn the finger technique. However about every third or fourth time, that knuckle dipped into the PF basket changing the amount of coffee in the basket. By the way, I did tweak the Hybrid doser to dose a perfect 18 grams per pull, but for home use, I don't grind that much to fill the doser at home. Les On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:30 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Wasn't talking about filling the doser for accurate dose to PF! Talking about grinder with grind timer that will grind for X duration to 0.1sec accuracy to control the amount ground which (duh) controls the amount dosed. But as far as your Hybrid goes was referring to being able to distribute evenly enough and clump free enough from the doser "while grinding and thwacking" the grinds into the PF that leveling isn't necessary assuming amount dosed was consistent. (That's were timer mod comes in handy:-) This method it's visual of the grind mound how much slightly higher than the basket in the middle and slighly lower around the edges in the basket before going directly to tamp with no leveling swipe. If going for ristretto over dosing by lightly tapping PF downward pre-determined number of times with pre-determined amount of force while filling as mound builds. Absolutely the way you level can affect the final dose. It's all about consistency! Roll the finger during the swipe for under dose. Roll during Stockfleth's or NESW before the swipe then it's effect up dosing. Chicago Chop method also up dosing. Or or or... miKe <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Intrigue is the fun of espresso! Les On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 4:13 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| " ...much less waste, especially important in a commercial envirnonment." A commercially significant waste would seem to be your Time, right? Once you lose an hour, you can never get it back. "At home with a stash way too big anyway wasted grinds can be a good thing!" Two things are undefined variables here: a.) - stash way too big [Gong] b.) - wasted grinds can be a good thing [TILT!] If a.) I could lease the vacant two chair beauty salon next door and support my habit; If b.) Don't grind so much- Grind not, Want not. A double in the BUFF grinder goes "Pffft" It all settles into the filter with tapping. Maybe lose a couple of mg. But dose a whole glut and push a pile overboard with a straight edge? That's mighty Starbucks of you... Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa! Got Grinder? On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:53 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote: <Snip> -- "When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976 Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
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