HomeRoast Digest


Topic: [Homeroast] Turning Bottomless Portafilter (64 msgs / 3066 lines)
1) From: Dennis Parham
Well I did it.. went down to machine shop and had the portafilter on my UNIC DIVA turned... a 2-fer deal! was fun! I was allowed to watch! here is the URL I posted on flicker http://www.flickr.com/photos/20226810/sets/72157624800257360/Dennis Parham Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

2) From: Dennis Parham
Well I did it.. I went down to machine shop and had the portafilter on my UNIC DIVA turned... a 2-fer deal! was fun! I was allowed to watch! here is the URL I posted on flicker http://www.flickr.com/photos/20226810/sets/72157624800257360/Dennis Parham Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

3) From: g paris
Dennis: very cool. please let us know if it really does make a difference cuz I got one to do if it does!! ginny On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Dennis Parham wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

4) From: Dennis Parham
Ginny I really like bottomless portafilters.. its great for shots because you can see whats happening.. also no part of the shot makes contact with any other object accept cup... plus it looks cool! ;-) Ive kind of backed off on espresso this last year as a cup all in itself and have been making americanos almost exclusively.. now Im back on my game and realized WOW! I had become sloppy with my shots! Americanos have a way of making a not as good shot an ok shot when mixed with hot water...lol when I recently decided hey I jus twit a shot... I almost threw up! lol ( not really but you know how we all are here... lol ) anyway... I did not drink it and... made it into an americano! :-P but that made me think.. DANG! Ive let myself go! all my experience wasted! Im a failure.. ok I didn't think that either but still.. you now how we all are here ;-) so back to my story... anyway... started making some adjustments nip here tuck there... lift.. settle... and shots are back on track! its like playing a Stradivarius... or acceptable copy.. well, not us here.. you know how we are. ;-) lol Dennis Parham On Aug 24, 2010, at 9:01 PM, g paris wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

5) From: raymanowen
That's neat, Dennis! This non-machinist is imagining going over to the vo-tech machine shop in the career enrichment park. The hope was to interest a student in making some money, either by milling out existing pf bottoms or by building new ones [whatever] size. A moot point with super-autos, but I wonder how the manufacturers fine-tune the espresso cuckoo clocks, since there is no incentive to watch after the *$ employee selects the right button. It could have been a big draw at the *Automat* in NYC. Was the S-I ferry still a nickel when we were there? Dad called it the Nickel Ferry Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa! Got Grinder? Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

6) From: raymanowen
One more thing- Take a good look at the 4-jaw chuck on the lathe. It weighs more than 75 pounds, and all it does is hold the little brass porta-filter casting. The piece being machined is tiny compared to the 1-ton (+) machine , to permit precise machining operations. The pf (workpiece) could be the last one in existence, as far as the machinist is concerned. The 5-pound toys from Grinders-R-us are the worst evil that could be inflicted on coffee. The grounds look like Mars surface rubble and we wonder about flavor and stalling. Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa! Got Grinder? Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

7) From: Richard Ferguson
Here is something else to keep in mind. Have an apron handy if you are pulling a shot before work with a bottomless portafilter. You never know when a jet might strike and get your pants dirty. Not like this has happened to me or anything. =) Richard On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Dennis Parham wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

8) From: Joseph Robertson
Bottomless portafilter really means make sure you got your bottoms on when pulling your first shots of the day. ;^) Not that I have done anything like that, ;0000. Joe On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 4:03 AM, Richard Ferguson wrote: <Snip> -- Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform. Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

9) From: Dennis Parham
shah well I guess Ive been pretty lucky! Ive never had one of those fortunately! lol my tighty whiteys stay white! however I have had one to the back splash... so.. seems to me if you do everything back asswords you'll be ok! lol I tend to do things backwards! in this case its paid off! HAHA Dennis Parham On Aug 25, 2010, at 10:09 AM, Joseph Robertson wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

10) From: raymanowen
"You never know when a jet might strike..." I had 'em all over the place (3 or 4 at least) after I converted the Crapesso by removing the three plastic flow-restriction discs from the bottom of its portafilter handle. Pre- castration, there were four surfaces facing each other that were inaccessible for cleaning- not a good situation. Even my Simple Green/ Dishwasher detergent Witches Brew didn't clean it The flow restriction would create back pressure with any grind and packing, hence the plastic "tamper." Got a better one- 52.9mm tamper for the 53.3mm filter basket or about 0.017" clearance. The Idiot Savant that designed the machine had the theory that one is not bothered by things he cannot see. (Or so said Marketing) The "coffee jets" are a good indication that the packing and tamping are uneven, otherwise, why would any filter perforation have more pressure and flow than others ? In ideal espresso brewing, the packing is homogeneous and the flow resistance generates the 9 bar back pressure. That pressure only exists at the very top of the puck, and diminishes to Zero at the bottom, for a melange brew. That's the way everyone likes it, so... The flow restriction/ pressure regulation south of the puck is probably a good idea, with a larger diameter pf = less pressure variation through the puck. If the puck were just 1 grain deep, there would be no pressure drop when the water passed the coffee field. Which would be harder to cross, an acre of corn in a 209' square field or a mile long field, just crossing the narrow 8ft 3inch strip? My demi just fits over the open bottom of the pf handle, so I just watch the show through the glass. No apron needed. Different-sized porta filters should brew and extract differently. The fact that a few perforations spray out while the rest just flow is the first step in trouble shooting. Don't ignore it- solve it and your espresso just gets better. + Roasting, + Grinding. Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa! -- Persist in old ways; expect different results - suborn Insanity... Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

11) From: Joseph Robertson
Right on RayO. Bottomless is a great tamper teacher and then some. JR On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 2:33 PM, wrote: <Snip> -- Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform. Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

12) From: miKe mcKoffee
To be accurate pulling nekkid shots well is more about distribution than the virtually unnecessary tamp. I can pull totally untamped nekkid shots no problem with the shot. (Problem is tends to dirty up the group screen way fast.) Slave to the Bean miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.compasscoffeeroasting.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before. Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

13) From: Dennis Parham
hehehe On Aug 24, 2010, at 10:24 PM, RaymanOwen wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

14) From: Dennis Parham
hmm.... a lathe could make a fine grinder! lol clamp in some burs and some sort of funnel! ehhee D On Aug 25, 2010, at 1:52 AM, RaymanOwen wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

15) From: Dennis Parham
ok heres a triple of SM PURO SCURO FC++ with my UNIC DIVA with newly de-bottomed portafilter.... hmmmmm petty yummy that is!http://www.flickr.com/photos/20226810/4933065878/in/set-72157624696179049/Dennis Parham On Aug 26, 2010, at 1:28 AM, miKe mcKoffee wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

16) From: g paris
where can I get my La Valentina made bottomless? g On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Dennis Parham wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

17) From: Dennis Parham
Will Les do it? I know you can send to espressoparts.com , my guy here might could get him to do it but I cant guarantee Im timely on returning it in mail since I work so many hrs... he has my other one there buy I couldn't wait to pick it up lol have to go back next monday unless its a holidaaaa........ well DANG! it IS! so that means not till tuesday! DOH! lol call any local machine shop. mom and pop one... there has to be plenty.. thats what idid... he did it while I waited.. one of them.. the other I could not wait for.. lol Dennis Parham On Aug 27, 2010, at 7:00 PM, g paris wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

18) From: g paris
timely is not an issue for me, I have the rest of my life which I figure is at minimum another 60 years!!! I forgot all about Les but he is so busy. I will give him a call. I want bottomless!! will send pictures!! love ya, g On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 4:11 PM, Dennis Parham wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

19) From: Joseph Robertson
Ginny, I had a friend of my take the pf to his shop and use a hand drill / Vise to hold it and a hole saw to cut mine out. From now on I will do my own. The chrome coating is real thin. the core is bronze I think. Very easy to cut with a hole saw. Joe On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 4:00 PM, g paris wrote: <Snip> -- Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform. Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

20) From: John A C Despres
I did mine with a hack saw and then finished it on the mill then buffed it to perfection. John On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Joseph Robertson wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

21) From: Demian Ebert
I cut mine out with a hole saw and smoothed out the rough edges with a dremel. Worked just fine and I didn't even have a vise Demian. On 8/27/10, John A C Despres wrote: <Snip> -- Sent from my mobile device Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

22) From: Joseph Robertson
Demian, Good for you. I'm pretty sure my friend held it by hand. I was thinking that a vise might come in handy. Joe On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 8:29 PM, Demian Ebert wrote: <Snip> -- Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform. Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

23) From: raymanowen
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24) From: Joseph Robertson
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25) From: raymanowen
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26) From: g paris
any particular place to cut, just at the largest point at bottom before it slopes? I can cut it, I have two so if I do screw on it it's ok through I am very handy that way. I even have a vise!! g On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 8:29 PM, Demian Ebert wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

27) From: Dennis Parham
Ginny did you see this reference page?http://tinyurl.com/bottomlessportafilterDennis Parham On Aug 28, 2010, at 8:00 AM, g paris wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

28) From: dennis true
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29) From: Dennis Parham
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30) From: g paris
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31) From: John Borella
I made my Microcasa bottomless p/f using a hole saw in a drill press. Dressed it with hand files & it looks professionally done. P/F was clamped in a vice securely clamped to the d/p shelf. Also opened up a La Spaziale bottomless the same way when I went to a triple basket. It's not rocket science but you do need to exercise common sense & take the same precautions you should be using around any power tool. John B.

32) From: Joseph Robertson
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33) From: dennis true
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34) From: Joseph Robertson
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35) From: Joseph Robertson
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36) From: Joseph Robertson
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37) From: Dennis Parham
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38) From: Demian Ebert
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40) From: Dennis Parham
I wonder how many twists and turns our list will go through in 60 years! WOW! what a RIDE! hehe Wonder if we will all be using super autos by then! lol water will somehow be able to be boiled at higher temps to extract things never tasted before! ... noses will be "enhanced" with electronic receptors so we can experience everything to a factor of 10! HMMM...... lol then the big GLOBAL Coffee Consortium of 2041 that starts mining the moon for special ore for coffee growing here on Earth! WOW! hehehe ok ok back to earth! lol But at least we all are going to grow together! hehe Dennis Parham On Aug 27, 2010, at 8:01 PM, g paris wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

41) From: Joseph Robertson
Grow or die early, standing water or people go bad in a short time. What's that thing, " a rolling stone gathers no....." Use and exercise then ole' brain cells. Coffee helps with all those synapses. Bare bottom those pf's. Less to clean at the end of the day. Ramble, Ramble, on.... , back to work. JR On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Dennis Parham wrote: <Snip> -- Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform. Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

42) From: Justin Schwarz
This is kind of becoming a dead horse but i'll throw in my 2¢, I have don= e a few of these using nothing more than vice grips on a bench, a cordless = drill and a dremel. I attached to the first part of the handle that is met= al arranged in such a way that if the drill were to sieze in the process it= would not fly away. I used a 2" hole saw and a cordless drill with plenty= of cutting oil, brass is pretty soft stuff so as long as you are using low= speed it didnt seem all that dangerous to me. If you are not familiar with= drilling metal be careful (especially when the hole is almost complete), b= ut no need to be afraid of the relatively simple process. A cordless drill = with a clutch chuck works great. Once the hole was cut finishing touches we= re performed with a dremel, no sharp edges. = The only time I have injured myself drilling through metal was with an elec= tric (plug in type) drill they are far less forgiving than a cordless. 1/2 = inch hole through 3/8" steel overhead on top of a 12' ladder, the bit sieze= d as I punched through the last bit of the hole and twisted my hand pretty = bad, broke the bit, droped the drill and almost fell off the ladder. With all of that being said, the one Dennis had professionally turned in a = machine shop looks beautiful and I am jealous about that perfect bevel on t= he underside, how much did it cost? = Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

43) From: Jim Gundlach
I simply cut the bottom off mine with an about one inch Dremel cutting blade. A simple cut with the blade inside the portafilter and a little rounding of the edges took about five minutes at the most. The wear on the blade was maybe a third of a blade that cost about fifty cents. pecan jim Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

44) From: Dennis Parham
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45) From: Joseph Robertson
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46) From: Rich
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47) From: miKe mcKoffee
Been involved in and read discussions of shot perceived difference, if any, between nekkid and spouted for close to a decade. Many of these discussions with some of the most acute palates in the world often using the most cutting edge equipment in the world like Roburs or Versalab grinders and GS3s or Speetsters etc. (And everthing on down.) Don't recall temperature of the resulting cup ever being an issue. Usually biggest perceived difference is in the "unstirred" straight shot with spouted being creamier texture versus nekkid. Stir the shot and difference bye-bye. If someone thinks they can pull a couple or few shots a day and be even close to 90% consistent without ongoing shot feedback IMO quite delusional. Indeed quite a bit of can be gleened watching spouted flow (with years of experience not just an afternoon of instruction), but not as much or as rapidly as pulling nekkid. It ain't primarily about showy shots, it's about quality shot production. And a HUGE advantage of pulling nekkid in a busy environment is the PF doesn't need periodic cleaning at all, zero, zip. No old coffee clinging to spout and crevices degrading shots. Baskets easily kept clean rinsing just rinsing both sides same time post shot flushing group after each shot and wiping dry. During the day periodic water backflushes and basket steam cleaning all that's needed to keep it clean and shot quality high. The biggest complaint I hear from some people using nekkid PF's is mess from frequent spraying. If that's a constant problem PF build technique is faulty plan and simple. Pulling with spout will merely mask it not correct it. miKe <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

48) From: Peter Louton
I agree with Mike that practice makes better, but I find that the crema does drastically change the taste of the shot and I have been known to scoop off the crema and drink only what's left.  To really stir the crema, check out James Hoffman's Video about crema at www.jimseven.com/2009/07/06/video-1-crema  Peter -- Sent from my Palm Pre On Aug 29, 2010 13:42, miKe mcKoffee <mcKona> wrote: Been involved in and read discussions of shot perceived difference, if any, between nekkid and spouted for close to a decade. Many of these discussions with some of the most acute palates in the world often using the most cutting edge equipment in the world like Roburs or Versalab grinders and GS3s or Speetsters etc. (And everthing on down.) Don't recall temperature of the resulting cup ever being an issue. Usually biggest perceived difference is in the "unstirred" straight shot with spouted being creamier texture versus nekkid. Stir the shot and difference bye-bye. If someone thinks they can pull a couple or few shots a day and be even close to 90% consistent without ongoing shot feedback IMO quite delusional. Indeed quite a bit of can be gleened watching spouted flow (with years of experience not just an afternoon of instruction), but not as much or as rapidly as pulling nekkid. It ain't primarily about showy shots, it's about quality shot production. And a HUGE advantage of pulling nekkid in a busy environment is the PF doesn't need periodic cleaning at all, zero, zip. No old coffee clinging to spout and crevices degrading shots. Baskets easily kept clean rinsing just rinsing both sides same time post shot flushing group after each shot and wiping dry. During the day periodic water backflushes and basket steam cleaning all that's needed to keep it clean and shot quality high. The biggest complaint I hear from some people using nekkid PF's is mess from frequent spraying. If that's a constant problem PF build technique is faulty plan and simple. Pulling with spout will merely mask it not correct it. miKe >

49) From: Joseph Robertson
Peter, I saw this video when it first came out and had a lot of question and doubt about it. I have mentioned it before here so I won't doddle long here as I got some negative comments. I for one like my creama not stirred in. Kind of like Martini's or butter side up or butter side down. In the case of James video/analysis of the taste difference with and without creama I wanted to know what a science professional and master coffee roaster and owner of CoffeeLabs International would have to say about this video so I forwarded it on to him for a comment. After viewing the video he got back to me and only had a one word comment. "Rubbish" I'm sure he means no direct disrespect for a former WBC. I think he strongly just disagrees with James on this point. Besides isn't taste subjective anyway? He said that the creama holds some very important components of espresso and named the chemicals by name. Damned if I can remember that part. Remove them and guess what. It's not what it was and in my mind surely not what the machine was designed to put out. IMNSHO Just a few pennies to add before I have to close up the shop. JoeR On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Peter Louton

50) From: Barry Luterman
I have tried it both ways many times. Although it is true crema by itself is not good and crema floating on top is only slightly better. The best seems to be crema stirred into the brew. At least to my taste. On Aug 29, 2010 7:10 PM, "Joseph Robertson" wrote: <Snip> doubt <Snip> without <Snip> he <Snip> means <Snip> and <Snip> peter <Snip> scoop <Snip> >> <Snip> any, <Snip> discussions <Snip> difference <Snip> delusional. <Snip> about <Snip> to <Snip> just <Snip>http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.com<Snip>http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.com<Snip>http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20Homeroast mailing list">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.com<Snip>http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.com<Snip>http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.com<Snip>http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

51) From: Yakster
After first seeing the video, I tried it skimmed and stirred but I seem to prefer the crema on top. This, no doubt, is not only affected by personal preference, but the coffee used and crema produced. I once had a barista at Verve serve me an espresso recommending that I stir this one, which I did. I don't have any reference for comparison and I just took him at his word, but I had no reason to doubt him and the espresso was quite good. -Chris (sent from mobile device) Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

52) From: Joseph Robertson
Barry, When in class with Mane' I noticed he always added sugar and stirred it and drank it. Everyone seems to have their taste and technique. I have tasted some really fine espresso at miKe's shop in Vancouver. I guess I just got used to tasting spro straight with out stirring or adding anything. Seems like the only way I can tell what I'm doing with my own is to take it straight like single malt scotch. Sure looking forward to a spro crawl with Bry. JoeR On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 9:31 PM, Barry Luterman wrote: <Snip> -- Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform. Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

53) From: Bill S.
Thanks KiKe, as always, You are the "nekkid portafilter" of this blog-- Nothing comes between you and trying to get the best coffee into the cup; You call the shot exactly as it is; You help us make better coffee, which is one of the things in life which makes us smile. BillS. On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 1:40 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

54) From: Bill S.
MiKe, Please forgive my misspelling.. BillS. On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Bill S. wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

55) From: raymanowen
One more thing to add to this espresso brewing thread- This wannabe also does not like the coffee grounds or fines of any kind to float up the column of water from the group. "...[miKe] can pull totally untamped nekkid shots no problem... (Problem is tends to dirty up the group screen way fast.)" Is that all- nothing north of the screen harbors some ultra-fine floaters in the passages? I have some hard white cereal bowls and saucers. Pure water from the wand always makes a pristine crystal clear puddle when I'm pre-heating and looking through the glass demi, then cycling some hot water back to the reservoir. 100° F reservoir water doesn't bother the 55w vibe pump- ( Yay, Crapesso!= ) but the thermoblock heater thinks it's growing muscles, when it's just lifting smaller weights twice. Temperature surfing to brew a shot of espresso is still a fact of life on the little bugger, and a disc of bleached and rinsed filter paper retained by a Gold [brass] mesh disc on top of the puck stops All the potential grounds floaters. Maybe only stops 0.998, but of the Four Great Leaps Forward in espresso brewing for me, this little pre-filter was #3. #1 was the Grinder, and I thought "That's all, folks- can't get any better than this." #2 was flash or surface freezing the beans in a pressed-flat ZipLoc sandwich bag before grinding. Better grinding and destroys heat in advance [That's It] #3 Described above- [No flavors extraneous to the fresh grounds- Can't get any better] #4 was Vibro-compacting the grounds in the basket, followed by almost Zero tamp- just enough tamp to smooth and level the top in conjunction with step #3. [Shot got better yet] #N Was ist um die Ecke? Es ist schon zu viel Spaß! Cheers, Mabuhay, Prost -RayO, aka Opa! -- = Persist in old ways; expect new results - enjoy the Insanity... Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

56) From: g paris
to botom or not. I usually do not agree with my friend MiKe but I must say that tasting is far better then seeing and I am not sure that I do not see enough with my bottoms on!! That aid I may try it for the hell of it to see if the coffee really tastes different but my guess it that is does not. Looks way cool, lots of jazz factor but does it really taste better? ginny On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Bill S. wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

57) From: Bryan Wray
Just to weigh in late, without having read many of the discussion early on: Re: Spouted vs. No-Spouts-     Most of the differences between spoute= d and spoutless PF have to do with the amount of crema each type of PF prod= uces and which type of coffee. First, the general facts:- Bottomless produce more crema- Crema leads to a = fuzzy, thicker mouthfeel in espresso My Opinions:- Crema (very generally) contains the majority of the sharp, so= ur flavors in espresso.  These flavors typically persist 2/3 of the way b= ack and 1/2" off the centerline of the tongue in my experience, although th= ere is not actually a "taste map" as many people think.- A great number of = aromatics escape during the "scraping" of crema, which was previously actin= g as a crust. My Conclusions from "Facts vs Opinions"A shot that has come from a spouted = portafilter is going to taste more balanced, however, balance can often com= e across as lacking or boring to some.  When you reduce the amount of cre= ma on the shot you also reduce the thick feeling of the espresso.  You al= so (in my opinion) decrease the amount of flavor in the shot because you ha= ve reduced the sharp, sour flavors.  The shot is, essentially, tamer and = more "controlled." Also, to speak to what Mike said, I've been using both styles of portafilte= rs for 4 years now, often in side by side comparisons, and in my opinion it= 's a little silly to use portafilters with spouts.  They ARE dirtier, no = matter how much scrubbing you think you are doing.  Dirty equipment= bi= tter shots.  Also, when something goes wrong on a bottomless portafilter = you immediately know.  It jets/sprays/channels and you have a visible sig= n.  Why wouldn't you want to know immediately when something has gone wro= ng?  If your shot sprays, something IS wrong.  The only way to see spra= y is to go bottomless. As a small side note... In regards to James' blog about crema scraping... I= think it's important to know James when judging this post.  I've spoken = with James a number of times at different trade-shows, jams and whatnot. =  It isn't like we are best buds or anything, but you do get a sense of th= e type of person someone is by following their writing for a long time and = I've been following James' blog for a number of years, rather religiously. = He's a great guy and INCREDIBLY smart.  One of the first things you note = when you meet James is how (sometimes somewhat annoyingly) inquisitive he i= s.  He challenges anyone to speak against his findings openly.  He want= s as many people to go out and try to prove him wrong as possible, because = at least then SOMEONE understands what is going on.  Sometimes this comes= back to burn him later (think his infamous "Chemex technique" instructiona= l video), but ultimately, he just wants to stir the pot and get people thinking.  Sometimes, it's purely for his own enjoyment, just to see how= many people he can get on board with one of his ideas.  Blogs are just t= hat... blogs.  Journals.  Thoughts that are often based solely on opini= on.  I find it a little humorous that anyone on here with an espresso set= up that has a price tag under $2000(ish) would be willing to completely wri= te off James' conclusions about scraping crema. -bry Bryan Wray Nor'West Coffee 360.831.1480 Bryan It is my hope that people realize that coffee is more than just a caffeine = delivery service, it can be a culinary art- Chris Owens --- On Mon, 8/30/10, raymanowen wrote: From: raymanowen Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Turning Bottomless Portafilter To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this list,= available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html" Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 2:22 PM One more thing to add to this espresso brewing thread- This wannabe also does not like the coffee grounds or fines of any kind to float up the column of water from the group. "...[miKe] can pull totally untamped nekkid shots no problem... (Problem is tends to dirty up the group screen way fast.)" Is that all- nothing north of the screen harbors some ultra-fine floaters in the passages? I have some hard white cereal bowls and saucers. Pure water from the wand always makes a pristine crystal clear puddle when I'm pre-heating and looking through the glass demi, then cycling some hot water back to the reservoir. 100° F reservoir water doesn't bother the 55w vibe pump- ( Yay, Crapesso!= ) but the thermoblock heater thinks it's growing muscles, when it's just lifting smaller weights twice. Temperature surfing to brew a shot of espresso is still a fact of life on the little bugger, and a disc of bleached and rinsed filter paper retained by a Gold [brass] mesh disc on top of the puck stops All the potential grounds floaters. Maybe only stops 0.998, but of the Four Great Leaps Forward in espresso brewing for me, this little pre-filter was #3. #1 was the Grinder, and I thought "That's all, folks- can't get any better than this." #2 was flash or surface freezing the beans in a pressed-flat ZipLoc sandwich bag before grinding. Better grinding and destroys heat in advance [That's It] #3 Described above- [No flavors extraneous to the fresh grounds- Can't get any better] #4 was Vibro-compacting the grounds in the basket, followed by almost Zero tamp- just enough tamp to smooth and level the top in conjunction with step #3. [Shot got better yet] #N Was ist um die Ecke? Es ist schon zu viel Spaß! Cheers, Mabuhay, Prost -RayO, aka Opa! -- = Persist in old ways; expect new results - enjoy the Insanity... Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 = Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

58) From: Jim Gundlach
To botomless or not? When this was discussed on this list a few years agO, that "o" was capitalized by a kitten standing on the shift key, I opened up the portafilter, rubbed the inside with a finger and applied that finger to my tongue and decided to take the bottom out rather than clean it as often as needed. pecan jim On Aug 30, 2010, at 8:54 PM, g paris wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

59) From: Mike Koenig
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60) From: Allon Stern
On Aug 31, 2010, at 10:58 AM, Mike Koenig wrote: <Snip> I think your spare PF will become your primary PF ;) I've starting playing with bottomless for the first time, and I'm already a convert. Sure, it's one more thing to obsess over (ooh, damn, got a pinhole over there) but if coffee isn't already an obsession, you're in the wrong place. - allon Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

61) From: Scace, Gregory E. Mr.
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62) From: sci
The bottomless PF is one of the best and easiest innovations ever, not to mention inexpensive. Espresso is so finicky and so many things can and do go wrong. The BPF helps eliminate many of those pesky variables. IF the shots turn out a little too sharp or too much crema, there are ways to compensate for that more easily than the things that go wrong with a spouted PF which you never know. If you don't have a BPF, run, don't walk, to the nearest place you can get one for your machine. That's my 2 cents worth. Astoria Junior with BPF Mazzer SJ Ultra pure water filtration/softener Ivan Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

63) From: Joseph Robertson
Ivan, What can go wrong with a spouted PF other than never cleaning it. What I think is wrong with a spouted PF is that there is no way to tell if your tamping is even and consistent. I don't believe it has any function other than funneling shots in two or a single direction. JR On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 6:24 PM, sci wrote: <Snip> -- Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform. Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

64) From: Bryan Wray
Greg,Perhaps I should watch my wording more closely, but I never meant to i= mply that a bottomless PF actually produces more crema, it simply yields=  more crema. In the end, it's about someone's opinion. My opinion is that it's rather foolish to not use what is essentially a typ= e of X-Ray vision into what is happening with a shot.  If I'm pulling on = bottomless and I have a pinhole, I know it; on a spouted, I have no clue (u= nless it's a giant pinhole and I see a flash of white in the split-stream). Obsess over staring at an extraction?  I would hope EVERYONE obsesses ove= r staring at the extraction.  With that in place, a bottomless PF lets yo= u see more of the extraction.  Why wouldn't you want to see more? To me it's like putting splitters below a V60 pour over.  What the hell i= s the point?  Cooling it off?  Why not try NOT preheating the serving v= essel/demi to damn near 200 F?  I'd would sooo much rather cool my shot= in a demitasse than on metal PF spouts. If the acid from espresso can slowly eat away at the holes in a basket what= do you think it's doing to the spouts?  When was the last time you repla= ced those spouts? If you want to dissolve the layers of a shot of espresso, use a spoon... th= at's why it's on the saucer. Little things to think about I suppose...  Again, in the end, it's about = someone's opinion.  I still see no merit to spouts. -bry Bryan Wray Compass Coffee 360.831.1480 Bryan It is my hope that people realize that coffee is more than just a caffeine = delivery service, it can be a culinary art- Chris Owens --- On Tue, 8/31/10, Joseph Robertson wrote: From: Joseph Robertson Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Turning Bottomless Portafilter To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this list,= available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html" Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 7:03 PM Ivan, What can go wrong with a spouted PF other than never cleaning it. What I think is wrong with a spouted PF is that there is no way to tell if your tamping is even and consistent. I don't believe it has any function other than funneling shots in two or a single direction. JR On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 6:24 PM, sci wrote: <Snip> te <Snip> ariascoffee.com <Snip> -- = Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform. Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820 = Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820


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